Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Theodric]

Venat had knowledge of an impending apocalypse that was set to kill a significant number of people and instead of speaking up in order to prevent it, she chose to remain silent. She was never operating in good faith. She even declares, quite openly, towards the end of Elpis that she was not going to simply go and speak to the Convocation in order to help prevent the Final Days.

Conveniently leaving out key facts, refusing to elaborate on the nature of the threat and various other factors further erode away the need for the Convocation to take her seriously.

To say nothing of the fact that if she revealed that knew of the Final Days in advance, she probably would have had some desperate mother who had lost her husband and children to a Terminus beast shove her to ground and crack open Venat's skull like a duck egg.

That's certainly a take on 'Flow' that I would have liked to have seen!

At any rate, deranged nutters that active allow disaster to strike their own society do not have much in the way of validity if they try to backtrack and demand to be listened to...after not simply being open and honest at the very start. (To say nothing of the fact that even her 'pleas' to the Convocation were based on falsehoods and beliefs that had no confirmed basis in reality.)

[EaraGrace]

My bad for replying to stuff in two different posts, but I don't think this follows. Not being immortal doesn't somehow make you immune to inevitably coming to an end, if just means it'll happen well before the fate that terrified the Ea came about. Escaping the consequences of immortality isn't escaping the consequences of being alive at all.

Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

Mortal civilisation will die just as certainly as (some of) the Ea or the plenty did, there's just a much wider variety of things that could do it. Even if you were super lenient and did allow a society to continue existing for as long as the Ea, how are they supposed to get around the heat death of the universe? The plenty had issues others could dodge, the Ea did not.

My interpretation of the moral of Endwalker is not “we have to make sure life goes on otherwise it’s pointless,” it’s “we should fight for every day we can, even if suffering and death is unavoidable.” If all will die to Heat Death then thats that, but it’s still good to fight for an extra day of living.

Do you truly think out of an entire civilization of ancient people who thrived on research only one would be capable of understanding dynamis? They had at the very least, after zodiark, 12k years. Even before that though Venat at least knows a bit about Dynamis, if she tells everyone that it’s the key, i don’t see why they couldn’t research it together. This whole thing of Hermes was the only one only works if you headcanon the ancients as stupid, which is the opposite of what we’re shown in Elpis.

And they would discover they can’t manipulate Dynamis and would either have to sunder themselves or create a being that could manipulate Dynamis and give it whatever it would need to defeat Meteion. That would mean control of Etheirys and the end of their “stewardship” as well as not sacrificing a bunch of them to get their family back.

[Theodric]

It's amusing to me that for all the talk of 'hubris' where immortal beings are concerned the same lazy caricatures are brought out to try and justify the removal of an innate trait associated with non-human entities. How interesting that, quite often, this is ordinarily considered to be a red line that should never be crossed - though only, mysteriously, in certain scenarios.

Personally, as a gay guy, I certainly wouldn't approve of someone deciding to 'fix' me by adjusting my sexuality. Equally, if I were immortal I imagine I would be equally opposed to someone who lives comparatively as long as an insect deciding that they needed to 'fix' me by removing my immortality.

It's actually pretty unsettling to think about.

Thankfully we already know from the Omega side quests that the immortality of the Ancients was never an actual factor of note in terms of overcoming despair. We saw Ancients do as much and create a solution - Venat simply didn't like it and wanted to masquerade as a 'supreme deity' to the Sundered.

[LordGiggles]

Yoshi P/Ishikawa already confirmed that all parts of Zodiark on the shards disappeared when the main body on the source was destroyed.

I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense given how sundering works everywhere else, but I at least appreciate that particular plot thread did get addressed. Weird it had to be done out of game considering, but still. Cheers for info

Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

Right, but the specific fates in the dead ends aren't the only things that can end a civilization. Mortality makes the whole cosmic inevitability stuff fairly irrelevant, and makes it harder to end up how the plenty did (not impossible), but it doesn't change that every species or civilisation does come to a point where it just cannot exist any longer. Fighting for a continued existence and a reason to continue existing is all well and good, but that fight always ends somewhere. The Ea are just an extreme example of what happens when you're too successful at fighting to live on and chase your goals, as are the omicron in a radically different manner.

Endwalkers themes work mostly fine when you apply them to us as individual people, but they struggle somewhat in much longer timescales or in some of the more unavoidable fates. I don't think it explains well why the attitudes of the scions and mortals as a whole are much better than some of those civilisations, or the ones in the report. Yshtolas counter was particularly awful, to repeat myself.

Oh, apologies for editing in a reply to this too, not used traditional forums for an actual discussion in forever lol

[AwesomeJr44]

Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

Uh, no. The Plenty didn't seem to have a death system like the Ancients did. On the plenty, you lived forever whether they wanted to or not. They literally had to invent a way to die en mass. The Ancients had a system set up where once you were done with living, you could choose to die whenever you wanted. This meant that if you didn't want to live, you had control over that. And the system worked. When the former Fandaniel finished his work, he returned to the star. When Venat quit, she choose not to, but if she ever changed her mind, the option is there. Because death is a choice on our star, there wouldn't ever be a full generation to completely self-delete all at once. Not to mention, the only reason that the people of the Plenty all wanted to die at once is because they got hit with a wave of negative Dynamis from Meteion, and they didn't have the thick aether the Ancients did. When Meteion attacked the Ancients with the same method, they didn't want to die.

The idea that the Plenty and the Ancients are the same is stupid. The writers claim that's where the Ancients would have ended, but the story screams the exact opposite. You can say that your story says whatever you like, doesn't mean it actually does.

And they would discover they can’t manipulate Dynamis and would either have to sunder themselves or create a being that could manipulate Dynamis and give it whatever it would need to defeat Meteion. That would mean control of Etheirys and the end of their “stewardship” as well as not sacrificing a bunch of them to get their family back.

And this isn't a valid strategy because? Even if the Ancients couldn't practice to control Dynamis inside areas like Ktisis that suppresses aether, why can't they just make a Meteion with a very strong sense of hope and positive dynamis? And how would this hand over 'stewardship' of the star? That makes literally zero sense! If the ancients send their new Meteion after the original, how are they handing stewardship to this new Meteion. They are trusting that their creation will defeat the enemy, but they aren't handing control over to anything. They could also encode a kill switch into their new Meteion and keep a copy back on the star. If their new Meteion goes rogue, kill it. Not to mention, once the OG Meteion is gone, they can have Zodiark return the souls to them. The souls are clearly intact as we see on the moon. They don't need Zodiark to protect them anymore, so Zodiark dying shouldn't be a concern.

Would you like to explain any of your logic here? It sounds like you're combining your personal headcanons with fanfictions you wrote/read and thinking that's official lore.

[thegreatonemal]

It's amusing to me that for all the talk of 'hubris' where immortal beings are concerned the same lazy caricatures are brought out to try and justify the removal of an innate trait associated with non-human entities. How interesting that, quite often, this is ordinarily considered to be a red line that should never be crossed - though only, mysteriously, in certain scenarios.

Personally, as a gay guy, I certainly wouldn't approve of someone deciding to 'fix' me by adjusting my sexuality. Equally, if I were immortal I imagine I would be equally opposed to someone who lives comparatively as long as an insect deciding that they needed to 'fix' me by removing my immortality.

It's actually pretty unsettling to think about.

Thankfully we already know from the Omega side quests that the immortality of the Ancients was never an actual factor of note in terms of overcoming despair. We saw Ancients do as much and create a solution - Venat simply didn't like it and wanted to masquerade as a 'supreme deity' to the Sundered.

Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution. They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that. We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

[AwesomeJr44]

Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution.

Alright Oatmeal, why don't you tell us what better solution they could have had, assuming Venat still didn't tell them crap. They took the best solution they had given the information they were provided.

They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that.

Their theory was that the final days was a natural disaster caused by the decay of celestial currents. Zodiark fixed that problem. As far as they knew THEY FIXED THE PROBLEM. How are they supposed to know there's some bird out there causing all of this if Venat is dead set on keeping her pie hole shut?

We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

How did Hermes make Meteion? Make dynamis constructs with hope as a driving emotion to go fight her. There was a lot of things they could have done if Venat spilled the beans.

[AnaviAnael]

Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution. They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that. We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

If only someone had told them what caused the disease. I'll ponder it over another bowl of oatmeal.

[thegreatonemal]

Alright Oatmeal, why don't you tell us what better solution they could have had, assuming Venat still didn't tell them crap. They took the best solution they had given the information they were provided.



Their theory was that the final days was a natural disaster caused by the decay of celestial currents. Zodiark fixed that problem. As far as they knew THEY FIXED THE PROBLEM. How are they supposed to know there's some bird out there causing all of this if Venat is dead set on keeping her pie hole shut?



How did Hermes make Meteion? Make dynamis constructs with hope as a driving emotion to go fight her. There was a lot of things they could have done if Venat spilled the beans.

First they have to be able to reach her. They can't at the moment. They did what they could at the time.

There was a whole group of people telling them that it isn't over that we have only delayed our doom. They weren't hearing it and were too busy trying to go back to what they had before the thing they thought was just a natural disaster took place. You'd have a point if we didn't have an entire faction of people saying "Hold up we gotta change, it's not over yet!"

Question of the age. Only he knows and he didn't submit a concept so no one else knows how to make her. In his current state he believes her a failure who imploded. Clue him in to what he did and he's probably not going to help you, most likely the opposite of help. The only other concept that uses Dyanmis is a flower created by some guy who may or may not have returned to the star already and it was by accident. Good luck with making a creation, even if you succeed you have no way of knowing if the thing you make will not turn into a monster. Remember how we all just read about how we can't really objectively measure the factor about who changes into a monster and who doesn't. What if your chosen sundered few travel all that way(they don't have the tech to do that but lets pretend they do) Chances are good they end up monsters and you won't get a second chance.

It was a crap situation all around, a lot of you acting like there was much that could have been done aren't looking at the situation as they knew it then. Knowing what she did and what the majority of her people were already doing she took it into her own hands and gamble. The world is alive(at great cost) and the disease cured.

But yea, according to you if she just told them all those other factors just don't exist anymore right? If only they gave her and her group the time of day when they were saying slow your roll. I'm sure things would have worked out lovely.

Also are you just stalking the thread whenever I post? That was real quick. Aww you do care <3

[AwesomeJr44]

They did what they could at the time.

Yay! You figured it out!

There was a whole group of people telling them that it isn't over that we have only delayed our doom.

There was zero evidence that Zodiark wasn't permanent. Had he not been killed him, he probably would have lasted forever. Not to mention, Venat's group didn't have the proper information either as she didn't tell them anything important. Is the convocation supposed to believe any random group of people that opposes their decisions, especially when the people in question don't know crap either? Venat didn't tell her group nor the convocation about Meteion. Maybe if she did, her group would sound less like a group of raving lunatics.

Only he knows and he didn't submit a concept so no one else knows how to make her. Clue him in to what he did and he's probably not going to help you

Then work on making a different one. The Ancients would have a MINIMUM of 12k years to perfect their new model. You can't seriously think they're so stupid that they can't accomplish that as a major project over the course of 12k years. This is the same civilization that created Zodiark. As for Hermes, there are few people researching it, not one. Lock him up or kill him. He's an active threat to the star.

Good luck with making a creation, even if you succeed you have no way of knowing if the thing you make will not turn into a monster.

Need creates innovation. The Ancients are used to doing everything with aether, but if they are informed that they need to use dynamis, they'll innovate. If it turns into a monster, that's what kill switches and experiments are for.

Remember how we all just read about how we can't really objectively measure the factor about who changes into a monster and who doesn't. Chances are good they end up monsters and you won't get a second chance.

Who said the ancients would only get one chance? The only reason we only had one was because Zodiark died. We were on a ticking clock to solve the problem. Again, the ancients have at LEAST 12k years.

It was a crap situation all around, a lot of you acting like there was much that could have been done aren't looking at the situation as they knew it then.

The only piece of evidence that says they couldn't is a line from Emet saying they can't. The rest of the story seems to say otherwise.

But yea, according to you if she just told them all those other factors just don't exist anymore right? Also are you just stalking the thread whenever I post? That was real quick.

Venat didn't give tell them about Meteion. And no, checking in on the thread isn't stalking, and I'm also replying to multiple people here. Calm down your ego Oatmeal.