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  1. #5341
    Player
    Teraq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    275
    Character
    Teraq Moks
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauront View Post
    I think she was aiming to prompt some 'deep thinking' with Hermes but he was under-developed, the civilisational backgrop against which they were trying to demonstrate these points was poorly suited to it and so it came across as relentlessly pretentious and self-indulgent. At least in my eyes.
    Exactly. I tend to like the "humans are bastards" misanthropic villains, but the premise of the trope sort of has to involve a tragic backstory that would justify it, or at least showing me that humans are actually bastards.

    I'm just seeing gentle weenwoons wrapped in snuggies living happy lives creating and debating things and attempting to use their natural powers in the best way they can, and this one dude who appears to feel extreme empathy for arcane entities but can't be bothered to talk to people around him while being weirdly anxious about death for an immortal guy.

    Oh, I suppose you could try... but that would largely undermine the sympathy of much worthier villains.
    (9)
    Last edited by Teraq; 06-14-2022 at 04:00 AM. Reason: ancients didn't deserve this

  2. #5342
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    498
    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
    This probably explains why I see so many streamers seduced by the post-Elpis cutscene. What I can't figure out is how someone can like both Emet and Venat. The two seem mutually exclusive to me. I don't know how you ignore the fact that Venat is directly responsible for every bad thing that ever happened to Emet.
    Well, it's because to a majority of players, the most important question isn't how Venat and Emet treated each other. It's how both Venat and Emet treat the player. Particularly as of Endwalker, both Venat and Emet like and support the player, therefore, we like both! Easy peasy.

    EDIT: This is very much secondary, and not related to what you're saying, but I kinda want to add that I myself have no problem adoring two characters who hate and mistreat each other, so long as I find both compelling and/or sympathetic. My favorite thing about G'raha Tia is his visceral dislike of Emet-Selch, my overall favorite character, and I wish that aspect of him got more emphasis because I loved their scenes together. If Venat had done the exact same things but had been handled differently by the narrative, I would have had no problems liking her as a character even keeping all the things she did to Emet.

    If anything, more characters who are all sympathetic should be allowed to dislike each other and sometimes act upon that dislike. It makes them all feel more real. I don't hate or even dislike the Scions as many in the thread do, but I do think they weren't handled well in Endwalker, and a lot of it ties into leaning too hard on them being a "united front" who didn't have anything to contribute to one another most of the time except agreement.
    (12)
    Last edited by Brinne; 06-14-2022 at 04:13 AM.

  3. #5343
    Player
    jameseoakes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,356
    Character
    James Oakes
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Teraq View Post
    Exactly. I tend to like the "humans are bastards" misanthropic villains, but the premise of the trope sort of has to involve a tragic backstory that would justify it, or at least showing me that humans are actually bastards.

    I'm just seeing gentle weenwoons wrapped in snuggies living happy lives creating and debating things and attempting to use their natural powers in the best way they can, and this one dude who appears to feel extreme empathy for arcane entities but can't be bothered to talk to people around him while being weirdly anxious about death for an immortal guy.

    Oh, I suppose you could try... but that would largely undermine the sympathy of much worthier villains.
    They didn't seem interested in putting any effort into, so he comes off as little more than a creepy man....
    (7)

  4. #5344
    Player
    Misplaced_Marbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    469
    Character
    Violent Saviour
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
    I liked those. D: Esteem is as close as I'm ever going to get to how I envision my WoL. (I'm catching up on posts, so will address Hermes in another reply.)
    Yeah, but that's the thing that happens when, as you said (at least i think it was you?), about a story or character "resonating" with the reader: they'll think it's great, maybe even the best thing ever.

    Personally, i though it was nothing but a bunch of insulting assumptions.
    (3)

  5. #5345
    Player Theodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    10,051
    Character
    Matthieu Desrosiers
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauront View Post
    That, plus several of these sort of incidents were reported via moderation and removed, so are no longer there.
    Yep. That's another issue with compiling evidence - and ironically results in Venat style gaslighting after that fact. I've seen a few posters have something they've said deleted by a moderator (or even been banned for it) only to later turn up and pretend as if it did not happen.

    I've seen some of those social media posts where someone will meticulously save everything and neatly compile it as evidence. Though that would certainly work in my favour, it requires considerable time and effort on my part. It's energy I'd rather spend on more enjoyable pursuits.

    'Why bring it up, then?' is the usual retort at such a juncture. At which point I will point to this very thread. Sometimes it's good to know that people aren't alone in thinking or experiencing something.
    (4)

  6. #5346
    Player
    Rulakir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    977
    Character
    Sajah Lane
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 88
    Quote Originally Posted by Brinne View Post
    Well, it's because to a majority of players, the most important question isn't how Venat and Emet treated each other. It's how both Venat and Emet treat the player. Particularly as of Endwalker, both Venat and Emet like and support the player, therefore, we like both! Easy peasy.
    But, but, but..! *sigh* I'm sure she 'liked and supported' Azem too before tearing their soul apart. :P

    If Venat had done the exact same things but had been handled differently by the narrative, I would have had no problems liking her as a character even keeping all the things she did to Emet.
    It should have gone the other way more. Emet had 12k years of 'hatred and heartbreak' built up for Hydaelyn, only for that BS commendation to the 'last of us' speech in UT.
    (9)
    Last edited by Rulakir; 06-14-2022 at 04:20 AM.

  7. #5347
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    498
    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Mm, it's not going to be the most popular take here, and it comes down to "what are you looking for in your role-playing game?" but I like the WoL as a partially-independent character and having opportunities to "observe" their reactions and have them surprise me and take my development of them in unexpected directions. I wouldn't like my WoL, and therefore the game, nearly as much, if they were actually a total wish-fulfillment blank-slate.

    I loved the WoL being more animated and expressive in cutscenes in the recent expansions, and the heavy-handed stuff with Venat aside, I think that they generally do a good job threading the needle between a baseline heroic character with basic established traits, and leaving room to interpret those traits in more detail for yourself.

    Also, I loved the DRK quests, but one of the visceral, primordial, chest-beating joys in my life is the chance to revel in Tearing Down The Heroic Fantasy so.
    (8)
    Last edited by Brinne; 06-14-2022 at 04:20 AM.

  8. #5348
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    498
    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
    But, but, but..! *sigh* I'm sure she 'liked and supported' Azem too before tearing their soul apart. :P
    Listen, at least in the scenes I played, Venat was nice to me and smiled at me and played a nice song about how I was her brave little spark and talked at length about how much she loved me and how I was her light the future. Meanwhile, did you see Azem's soul being torn apart? No? Then it's moot, okay? <_<

    It should have gone the other way more. Emet had 12k years of 'hatred and heartbreak' built up for Hydaelyn, only for that BS commendation to the 'last of us' speech in UT.
    Oh, absolutely. If a character has natural reason to hate another character, even if both are sympathetic and likable to the audience, let them do it. Too often trying to mediate and hand-wave that away to make sure everyone stays Clean and Good feels like a form of authorial cowardice, to me.
    (11)
    Last edited by Brinne; 06-14-2022 at 04:22 AM.

  9. #5349
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    4,449
    Character
    Tristain Archambeau
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    It's come up before but the thing I found most annoying was the UT Emet-Selch commentary where he's trying to compliment her, but it's worded so awkwardly in the EN version, that it's taken to dismiss out of hand the notion that anything could've been done differently or that the ancients could've charted a better way given more information. I saw it as them parasitising on his popularity to lend her credibility. It worked to some extent, I guess.
    (8)

  10. #5350
    Player AwesomeJr44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    1,128
    Character
    Marel Nobelle
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa View Post
    Than why did she even write him?
    Cause she wanted a sad man in her story, so she wrote sad man. But that wasn't enough. You see, she also wanted some KFC chicken while writing the story, so because she couldn't have any, she gave sad man a chicken nugget. But then the sadness of the man infected the chicken nugget, and it became sad chicken nugget. But then chicken nugget got sadder because she didn't wanna be sad, so chicken nugget because mad. Chicken nugget looked around and decided that everyone else should die because they're eating McDonalds and Burger King, and not buying any chicken nuggets from KFC. Sad, now mad chicken nugget became uber tier depressed chicken nugget and started poisoning the food of everyone else so that they'd all die. Everyone died because they didn't eat chicken nuggets. The end.
    (9)

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