Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[KariTheFox]

What makes the difference between a computer program and a person, though?

That's a pretty philosophical question, and maybe some computer programs could theoretically qualify. But we know that primals are essentially just arcane entities that are running on the input (beliefs and wishes) of those who summoned them.

And actually, now that I think about it. It's not like deleting a computer program - it's more like ending the process of a running program. You can still summon the same primal again, after all.

[tokinokanatae]

Sentience for one.

Are the Elpis creations sentient?

[redheadturk]

That's a pretty philosophical question, and maybe some computer programs could theoretically qualify. But we know that primals are essentially just arcane entities that are running on the input (beliefs and wishes) of those who summoned them.

And actually, now that I think about it. It's not like deleting a computer program - it's more like ending the process of a running program. You can still summon the same primal again, after all.

Again, Ramuh recalls events that happened between summonings. I suspect they are more like fae [aka amalgamations of bits of souls that have taken another form, in this case with crystals and faith] than actual spontaneously occurring arcane entities.

[Rulakir]

At this point, I'm not even sure what the point of these circular arguments even is.

There is none, especially when the opposition is arguing headcanon loosely based around ambiguously described events and misconstrued dialog. More power to those who have the patience to tackle someone's personal fan fiction. The amusing part is if they have to make up so much in their minds for the story and characters to work it just further goes to show how bad EW was.

[tokinokanatae]

Primals can converse with us, with one another—if we’re talking about Eden, they can also willingly fuse with one another to create entirely new entities beyond what we summon. Seems to me like “computer program” is just a fancy way of justifying killing then for our own benefit.

[KariTheFox]

If "has the ability to hold conversations" is the one criteria for personhood, I have some unsettling news about a lot of computer programs that exist today.

[EaraGrace]

Venat Sundered everything, all life, sacrifices included. Remember Emet's line? "That light split the world, and every life upon it!" What you're saying would work if Venat Sundered only the Ancients, but everything got axed.

And all would be dead if the Ancients reach their Dead End. When a species reaches the conclusion that living isn’t worth it, and they are the “stewards of the star”

Yes, as noted, her primary objections are "reclaiming lives" and "weakness" with the sacrifices being incidental as the method used to do and express those things, respectively. Her focal point is the virtue of the Ancients. I don't see her arguing about how "the sacrifices don't deserve to be killed" or "the sacrifices are innocent."

If she was arguing that it was bad to try and reclaim those lives then there is no reason to add onto it “by sacrificing yet more.” She explicitly brings up the act of killing others as part of the problem.

Clearly, we don't see the Eden Primals as alive, so killing them is not really murder.

Wait, no, that's nonsense. We've clearly seen that you can have conversations with Primals, even philosophical discussions, and they demonstrate a will to live and resistance to being killed, so...

Wait, I'm confused again.

I can have intelligent conversations with a chat bot! There are all sorts of programs that can resemble sentience, but I don’t think they're making living being yet. And their resistance to dying wasn’t motivated by their desire to live, but their desire to see through the will of their summoners!

There is none, especially when the opposition is arguing headcanon loosely based around ambiguously described events and misconstrued dialog. More power to those who have the patience to tackle someone's personal fan fiction. The amusing part is if they have to make up so much in their minds for the story and characters to work it just further goes to show how bad EW was.

I don’t have to handwave whole cutscenes to justify my perspective at the very least.

[Theodric]

There is none, especially when the opposition is arguing headcanon loosely based around ambiguously described events and misconstrued dialog. More power to those who have the patience to tackle someone's personal fan fiction. The amusing part is if they have to make up so much in their minds for the story and characters to work it just further goes to show how bad EW was.

Yep. Much like the false presentation of the 'trolley problem' when that comparison only works for a sudden, unexpected event and not when some nutty, delusional individual in the form of Venat decides to stand by and allow an apocalyptic event to occur with no forewarning only to then murder the survivors for not 'moving on'.

I don’t have to handwave whole cutscenes to justify my perspective at the very least.

You're well aware that it is a stylistic and false retelling of established events, I hope...?

[EaraGrace]

Are the Elpis creations sentient?

They have souls which is an objective sign of sentience for this fantasy world so yes.

You're well aware that it is a stylistic and false retelling of established events, I hope...?

Your hopes bear partial fruit! They are indeed symbolic, but nothing indicates the information conveyed is wrong or misleading. That is indeed what symbolism is for after all, to communicate information in a way that isn’t one to one with reality but retains the overall message. Unless you mean to argue that somehow Venat manipulated the visions we get in the rift? That would make them “false.”

[KizuyaKatogami]

And all would be dead if the Ancients reach their Dead End. When a species reaches the conclusion that living isn’t worth it, and they are the “stewards of the star”



If she was arguing that it was bad to try and reclaim those lives then there is no reason to add onto it “by sacrificing yet more.” She explicitly brings up the act of killing others as part of the problem.



I can have intelligent conversations with a chat bot! There are all sorts of programs that can resemble sentience, but I don’t think they're making living being yet. And their resistance to dying wasn’t motivated by their desire to live, but their desire to see through the will of their summoners!



I don’t have to handwave whole cutscenes to justify my perspective at the very least.

You’re being purposefully obtuse. With how much you pride yourself on being a lore specialist, you should know them from bozja’s lore that personal memory events are EXTREMELY malleable and biased. We literally see this with Cid where he chose to see Varis shooting him as opposed to his father, to help make himself feel better about his decision. Hmmmm….wonder if Venat’s walk might be the same? Purposefully seeing things a certain way to make herself feel better and right about what she did. It would certainly mimic the actions of her advocates at least