Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Brinne]

I am once again asking you to remember THERE WERE PEOPLE OTHER THAN VENAT IN THAT GROUP. Consider those other eleven people; they didn't have knowledge of the future, they were not told, and they still agreed with the result.

If you think 'what level of sacrifice was too much for Venat' is an invalid question, ask yourself 'what level of sacrifice was too much for The Watcher'. Not a single one of you has actually remembered that he's there and he had ten other people with him.

I'm not calling Venat's faction a cult or a conspiracy theory group, per se, but look: enough cults and conspiracy theory groups exist that it's bizarre to me for you to put forth that Venat being able to bring together a very small group of people who shared her viewpoint and concerns as they existed, and agreed with her reasons, is just unfathomable. The recording in Anyder, if anything, lends itself to that the faction as a whole was not concerned about "protecting the sacrifices" but far more caught up in "if we keep down this path, we'll cause our own doom!"

[Cleretic]

but far more caught up in "if we keep down this path, we'll cause our own doom!"

And judging by the answer over the last page or so of 'there is literally no non-human sacrifice too great for this', I feel like y'all are proving that to have been a completely valid concern to be 'caught up in'.

[Brinne]

And judging by the answer over the last page or so of 'there is literally no non-human sacrifice too great for this', I feel like y'all are proving that to have been a completely valid concern to be 'caught up in'.

The concern in isolation, much like Hermes's concerns, might be - and probably are - valid. The response to it being "so let's pre-emptively execute all humans because humans are willing to sacrifice the wildlife! (all wildlife will also be executed in the crossfire)" is a bit more contentious.

If you think this seems unreasonable and a reflection of very shaky writing, then hey, welcome aboard.

[EaraGrace]

The raid series where they deliberately created life to kill it and use its aether…?

I am begging people to understand that a primal is not a living being. Shiva, Bahamut and Shinryu were not living entities with wills of their own. They are entities summoned and motivated by the desires of the ones who summoned them.

I'm not calling Venat's faction a cult or a conspiracy theory group, per se, but look: enough cults and conspiracy theory groups exist that it's bizarre to me for you to put forth that Venat being able to bring together a very small group of people who shared her viewpoint and concerns as they existed, and agreed with her reasons, is just unfathomable. The recording in Anyder, if anything, lends itself to that the faction as a whole was not concerned about "protecting the sacrifices" but far more caught up in "if we keep down this path, we'll cause our own doom!"

Why is it mutually exclusive? One can be horrified by the sacrifice of living beings while also remaining focused on the ultimate goal. Why do people seem to think that having multiple, overlapping reasons for action is impossible?

Putting it simply, we can say that the willingness to sacrifice innocents to reclaim those lives lost is morally abhorrent, and the willingness of the Ancients to still go through with it is a another sign they won’t be able to accept the end of their “paradise.” If this is the price their willing to pay, would they be willing to give up their world, their immortality and their perfection?

Oh, ya mean when we summoned primals [much like the Ancients would be restoring the ecosystem and likely having the third sacrifice be familiars] to restore the Empty?

Not familiars, arcane entities which do not possess a soul, will or emotions. Seems like a poor comparison to me!

I'm also going to point out that when it came to the NieR crossover it was argued it couldn't be taken as accurate because it was based on Emet's POV, which was unreliable. Meanwhile, the Watcher is the epitome of biased. As a creation of Hydaelyn, he believed as she did and additionally his memories were limited by her. The rules magically change if it favors Venat.

Let’s remove all biased sources then actually! Hyth, Hyth 2.0, Venat, Emet, the Watcher, the cross over event, the cutscene in Elpis, Elidibus, and the crystals all should be ignored due to their biases!

[Brinne]

Why is it mutually exclusive? One can be horrified by the sacrifice of living beings while also remaining focused on the ultimate goal. Why do people seem to think that having multiple, overlapping reasons for action is impossible?

Because Venat also demonstrated a perfect willingness to "sacrifice living beings" in order to "protect the Ancients" (from her own perspective) by subjecting them to the Sundering as well.

She herself never spoke of defending the sacrifices. The writers have never tied defending the sacrifices in to her motives. Her big speech before the Sundering was wholly centered on her love of her people as the driving factor for her decision. The sacrifices did not matter to her except how they factored in to what she saw as the Ancients' downfall.

[EaraGrace]

Because Venat also demonstrated a perfect willingness to "sacrifice living beings" in order to "protect the Ancients" (from her own perspective) by subjecting them to the Sundering as well.

She showed a willingness to Sunder living beings that we’re going to self destruct their own civilization. The dilemma Venat faced is the trolley problem. The dilemma the Ancients faced is the fat man version of the trolley problem.

She herself never spoke of defending the sacrifices. The writers have never tied defending the sacrifices in to her motives. Her big speech before the Sundering was wholly centered on her love of her people as the driving factor for her decision. The sacrifices did not matter to her except how they factored in to what she saw as the Ancients' downfall.

I already know that I’ll get “that cutscene should be ignored” but I’m posting it anyway.

What makes the difference between a computer program and a person, though?

Sentience for one.

As always, I would expect those who - by their own admission - want to champion the 'mommy goddess with a soft voice' to say and do whatever it takes in order to try and push her as 'correct'.

And as always, the group solely interested in defending the Ascians, as well as pretty much every other opposing faction in the game, has decided they know best and we should all just shut up.

[Brinne]

She showed a willingness to Sunder living beings that we’re going to self destruct their own civilization. The dilemma Venat faced is the trolley problem. The dilemma the Ancients faced is the fat man version of the trolley problem.

Venat Sundered everything, all life, sacrifices included. Remember Emet's line? "That light split the world, and every life upon it!" What you're saying would work if Venat Sundered only the Ancients, but everything got axed.

I already know that I’ll get “that cutscene should be ignored” but I’m posting it anyway.

Yes, as noted, her primary objections are "reclaiming lives" and "weakness" with the sacrifices being incidental as the method used to do and express those things, respectively. Her focal point is the virtue of the Ancients. I don't see her arguing about how "the sacrifices don't deserve to be killed" or "the sacrifices are innocent."

[EaraGrace]

Venat Sundered everything, all life, sacrifices included. Remember Emet's line? "That light split the world, and every life upon it!" What you're saying would work if Venat Sundered only the Ancients, but everything got axed.

And all would be dead if the Ancients reach their Dead End. When a species reaches the conclusion that living isn’t worth it, and they are the “stewards of the star”

Yes, as noted, her primary objections are "reclaiming lives" and "weakness" with the sacrifices being incidental as the method used to do and express those things, respectively. Her focal point is the virtue of the Ancients. I don't see her arguing about how "the sacrifices don't deserve to be killed" or "the sacrifices are innocent."

If she was arguing that it was bad to try and reclaim those lives then there is no reason to add onto it “by sacrificing yet more.” She explicitly brings up the act of killing others as part of the problem.

Clearly, we don't see the Eden Primals as alive, so killing them is not really murder.

Wait, no, that's nonsense. We've clearly seen that you can have conversations with Primals, even philosophical discussions, and they demonstrate a will to live and resistance to being killed, so...

Wait, I'm confused again.

I can have intelligent conversations with a chat bot! There are all sorts of programs that can resemble sentience, but I don’t think they're making living being yet. And their resistance to dying wasn’t motivated by their desire to live, but their desire to see through the will of their summoners!

There is none, especially when the opposition is arguing headcanon loosely based around ambiguously described events and misconstrued dialog. More power to those who have the patience to tackle someone's personal fan fiction. The amusing part is if they have to make up so much in their minds for the story and characters to work it just further goes to show how bad EW was.

I don’t have to handwave whole cutscenes to justify my perspective at the very least.

[Brinne]

And all would be dead if the Ancients reach their Dead End. When a species reaches the conclusion that living isn’t worth it, and they are the “stewards of the star”

Well, everything that lived in the world before the moment Venat Sundered them is dead now anyway, so...

If she was arguing that it was bad to try and reclaim those lives then there is no reason to add onto it “by sacrificing yet more.” She explicitly brings up the act of killing others as part of the problem.

Therefore, she tries to prevent this by... killing everything?

I can have intelligent conversations with a chat bot! There are all sorts of programs that can resemble sentience, but I don’t think they're making living being yet. And their resistance to dying wasn’t motivated by their desire to live, but their desire to see through the will of their summoners!

Hey, makes sense to me, Emet-Selch.

[tokinokanatae]

Sentience for one.

Are the Elpis creations sentient?