Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[tokinokanatae]

So, let's perhaps revise the argument's direction for you: the third sacrifice isn't 'substantial enough for Venat to object to'. It's 'substantial enough for at least eleven environmentally-conscious academics to object to'. Essentially; what level of sacrifice do you think would have been enough to set off a room full of people like the Watcher?

Probably the same level of sacrifice that upset the researchers on Elpis.

I know it’s become the fashion in some circles to assume that the Ancient perspective is the same as the Ascian perspective, but that’s not the case. The Ancients saw their role on the planet to nurture life and evidenced no small amount of distress when even the life of animals was “cut short.” It’s a gigantic shift from seeing your society as one that protects and balances life to deliberately cutting short the lives of those creatures the planet has seen fit to provide souls for your own benefit. I can very easily see that becoming the source of a heated, ugly debate.

You can say the Ancients were callous to their own creations. I would disagree, but even if I accepted that premise, there is a marked basis in canon for them having a clear reverence for ensouled creatures—to the point where Phoenix accidentally gaining a soul and suffering in agony because of it was seen as a crisis that needed the intervention of one of their top government officials to evaluate and decide how to handle it. (As opposed to how we would handle a suffering animal right off the bat: put it down.)

[LordGiggles]

And you've completely failed to understand that the third sacrifice, for the story to make any sense at all, has to be substantial to a level of moral ambiguity; it has to be something that would be objectionable. If the third sacrifice isn't a huge and dubious alternative of some kind, then the Convocation look stupid for not doing it earlier, and Venat's crew look stupid for objecting to the ethical alternative. Since I assume you don't think the Convocation are stupid, then the third sacrifice must be something substantial.
as the contents.

I'm not trying to get into this particular argument, because I think Venats plan makes the most sense if she's specifically trying to find a solution to meteion, but her crew look kind of dumb in this context anyway. Even if we agree the third sacrifice was going to be entirely of unwilling people, the sundering wasn't actually any better.

[Lauront]

Probably the same level of sacrifice that upset the researchers on Elpis.

I know it’s become the fashion in some circles to assume that the Ancient perspective is the same as the Ascian perspective, but that’s not the case. The Ancients saw their role on the planet to nurture life and evidenced no small amount of distress when even the life of animals was “cut short.” It’s a gigantic shift from seeing your society as one that protects and balances life to deliberately cutting short the lives of those creatures the planet has seen fit to provide souls for your own benefit. I can very easily see that becoming the source of a heated, ugly debate.

You can say the Ancients were callous to their own creations. I would disagree, but even if I accepted that premise, there is a marked basis in canon for them having a clear reverence for ensouled creatures—to the point where Phoenix accidentally gaining a soul and suffering in agony because of it was seen as a crisis that needed the intervention of one of their top government officials to evaluate and decide how to handle it. (As opposed to how we would handle a suffering animal right off the bat: put it down.)

And to that we can add: how would those within Zodiark perceive this, i.e. to be returned after having sacrificed themselves? In a similar vein to ancient Emet's remarks on future Emet creating shades of his people out of nostalgia: Would we be seen as dishonouring them by doing this? Which is something I would consider a returned Elidibus could remark upon, revealing the purgatory state. There are plenty of angles one can approach it with to see why it might be controversial, that do not require it to involve further ancient sacrifice. All gaps the writers could have elaborated upon but haven't, so we simply are stuck with guesswork. The sacrifices simply are not brought up as a key motivator in the Q&A, her faction does not discuss them in a morally fraught sense (their concern is avoiding their doom, much like when she brings them up it's to frame them as 'weakness' for not accepting her words to roll with the predicament they were left in and "accept" suffering), so absent some new lore on this point, I am afraid there is little to convince me they were of central importance except in an instrumental sense.

[KariTheFox]

I mean, if Emet-Selch really wanted to join hands and come up with another solution he could have, y'know. Made it clear he was testing the inherent worth of humanity by seeing if the WoL was capable of handling thier lightwarden snacks. Instead of the whole, kidnapping our friend, threatening the people we care about, and goading us into succumbing to corruption thing that he did do.

Also, I fail to see how one person's ability to withstand being corrupted by a bunch of corruptive aether has any bearing on the inherent worth of all of mankind, but I'm not an ancient.

[tokinokanatae]

Instead of the whole, kidnapping our friend, threatening the people we care about, and goading us into succumbing to corruption.

I mean…all that was after was we failed the test…

[KariTheFox]

I mean…all that was after was we failed the test…

Funny, I don't remember the WoL ever succumbing to corruption completely and losing thier identity. When did we fail again? Pretty sure we passed pretty substansially.

[tokinokanatae]

Funny, I don't remember the WoL ever succumbing to corruption completely and losing thier identity. When did we fail again? Pretty sure we passed pretty substansially.

Our identity had nothing to do with the test. As Yoshi-P clarified above, the parameters of the test were if we could hold the light. We couldn’t; that’s why the sky went back to its former light aspect after we defeated Vauthry and our cup runneth over, so to speak.

[Brinne]

Funny, I don't remember the WoL ever succumbing to corruption completely and losing thier identity. When did we fail again? Pretty sure we passed pretty substansially.

What. What? ...what?

We collapse, are unable to act, and Y'shtola says outright we're "beginning to turn" after Innocence, and the only reason we didn't succumb on the spot was because of Ryne and her powers as the Oracle of Light. Even then, she - and Ardbert - tells us flat out it's a temporary measure at best and we're still going to explode soon. The only thing that actually stabilizes our condition is - wait for it - a Rejoining with Ardbert as our Shard, and even then, we're not truly healed without Emet-Selch cancelling out the light with his darkness at the very end.

It's, uh, pretty generous of Emet-Selch to accept the circumstances of our victory over him as "passing the test," if anything.

[KariTheFox]

What. What? ...what?

We collapse, are unable to act, and Y'shtola says outright we're "beginning to turn" after Innocence, and the only reason we didn't succumb on the spot was because of Ryne and her powers as the Oracle of Light. Even then, she - and Ardbert - tells us flat out it's a temporary measure at best and we're still going to explode soon. The only thing that actually stabilizes our condition is - wait for it - a Rejoining with Ardbert as our Shard, and even then, we're not truly healed without Emet-Selch cancelling out the light with his darkness at the very end.

It's, uh, pretty generous of Emet-Selch to accept the circumstances of our victory over him as "passing the test," if anything.

And why exactly is the ability for one person to perform an almost impossible biological feat the rubric for whether or not entire worlds deserve to die?

Wouldn't say, the way we got all the people of Nordvadnt to work together in chasing Vaurthy up Mt. Gulg be a much better sign of our ability to collaborate and solve problems?

The test was arbirtrary, not communicated clearly, and Emet-Selch had his thumb on the scales. At least he had the decency to accept defeat with grace when we beat him.

[Brinne]

And why exactly is the ability for one person to perform an almost impossible biological feat the rubric for whether or not entire worlds deserve to die?

Wouldn't say, the way we got all the people of Nordvadnt to work together in chasing Vaurthy up Mt. Gulg be a much better sign of our ability to collaborate and solve problems?

The test was arbirtrary, not communicated clearly, and Emet-Selch had his thumb on the scales. At least he had the decency to accept defeat with grace when we beat him.

Because part of Emet-Selch's concern was not just saving his people, it was also on the basis of, "would the Sundered be able to protect the star in the event of another Final Days-level calamity?" Can he trust them with being able to rise up to such a task? It's not hard to see why handling the light aether might tie into his logic on that front.

Even so, regardless of what you yourself think of the parameters of the test, it was administered, from Emet-Selch's perspective, on the basis of good faith and a sincere hope that we would pass and that together, we could find another way. That is indisputable. So any claims of "oh, he never really looked for another way, he'd always had his mind made up, he just wanted an excuse to condemn us" are flat-out, black and white, incorrect. Emet-Selch - as further indicated by Elpis - if anything, was desperately looking for an excuse to stop.