[Feedback] Scholar in Crystalline Conflict (Patch 6.15)

[Cytus]

Kind of funny and sorry I am not very good at using quote (the UI seems buggy by phone)

You yourselves said should spread dots as many as possible yet you said the 100% up time for team shield and damage buffs?
What is this ? your Deployment Tactics CD in 7.5 seconds ?
Did you even read before you type? THIS IS THE POINT , you can't 100% up time on both Shield and Dots.

You kept saying learn to play by telling others are bad don't make you a better player.
AND AT WHAT POINT DID I SAID 100-0 it the issue ?
The case in High rank is -> initial -> defending (Purify / Guard / Self Regen ) -> another CDs up and kill ( with CCs and good burst cooperation) ------> which in this case is a early kill , not 100-0 dude, can you not read?
Which , SCH has no burst no CCs and no gap closing to chain up with team by using the only burst like skill "Mummification".

AND THERE IS MMR for REAL, did you not play Ranked?
A 4k MMR is way better than a 500 MMR player. Please don't tell me you are good but you cant rank up becoz there is no Rank MMR .

About the mechanic issues, I mentioned them clear and fair, if you don't get my point , let me repeat it for you
1. Deployment Tactics CDs 15s , which makes it impossible to have dots and shield spread 100% up time.

2. The Expedient is fair , alittle under but good enough , the main issue in this case combine with Expedient and Adloquium.

3. Using Deployment Tactics for shield is dumb , since the shield worth 4k only and during fight it can't fully goes 4k ( you will be under attack and the shield decrease/ fully absorbed before you try to spread)
so in this , my personal suggestion is remove Adloquium and add Succor instead, this way both Spread Shield issue and Deployment Tactics issue solved.

4. Limit Break is awkward with the 4s limitation.

5. Mummification has good side effects , yet the range makes this skill awkward. It should worth more or the using limitation should ease, since there is no gap closing for SCH.

6. No flipping potential and hard to save teammates ( compare with AST -> instant heal , compare with WHM -> hex for help etc.)


And stop teaching me how to play by telling all the skills on paper, I know well how to play SCH and I did about 1k games in high elo Crystal already.
I'm not here to brag or talk about how good I am or try to suppress ppl by MMR or ranking, I talk only the facts and logical descriptions.
Hence, the evidences you say " SCH is perfect" and try to against my standings are all base ON YOUR SAYING , you show no proofs and no logical descriptions.
(I did offer some logical descriptions and wolves league is just one of my proofs.)
All you say is , damn SCH full buff 100% up time and 100% dots up time(which is impossible btw) , ez maxxxxxx damage in matches , if can't maxxxxxx damage = you sucks L2P .

My whole post is not whinnying for SCH, I'm showing that SCH has some issues and if these issue can be solved, the gameplay and game experience will boost.

I'll stop argue with you for all your standing seems fragile and lack of logical descriptions.
Since you said early kills lead a 10-12s deny LB charge is meaningless, I should stop arguing with you.
Everyone in Crystal Rank should know the whole games are actually playing around with Limit Break , yet you said it is meaningless.

Last , stop insulting people, it really make yourselves clown. We as a human should talk in reasonable and logical way.
My reply to you ends here , I'll not make anymore comments with you .

[Gserpent]

Kind of funny and sorry I am not very good at using quote (the UI seems buggy by phone)

You yourselves said should spread dots as many as possible yet you said the 100% up time for team shield and damage buffs?
What is this ? your Deployment Tactics CD in 7.5 seconds ?
Did you even read before you type? THIS IS THE POINT , you can't 100% up time on both Shield and Dots.

Right, you pick one or the other. I find dots to be better for spread, and just buff specific teammates as needed. But you can do the inverse if it would work better for you. Or you can save and do both at the same time to maximize pressure in exchange for being weaker for one cooldown cycle. It fluctuates based on the match, you are never doing just one thing always no mater what.

You were the one saying early kills was the meta, I was explaining how if that's the case then SCH is literally god tier because you can always have 100% uptime on team buffs if desired. Yeah dw about the quote thing, phb is pretty old forum software and was developed way before smartphones were a thing. I'm surprised it's even readable on phone lol

You kept saying learn to play by telling others are bad don't make you a better player.
AND AT WHAT POINT DID I SAID 100-0 it the issue ?
The case in High rank is -> initial -> defending (Purify / Guard / Self Regen ) -> another CDs up and kill ( with CCs and good burst cooperation) ------> which in this case is a early kill , not 100-0 dude, can you not read?
Which , SCH has no burst no CCs and no gap closing to chain up with team by using the only burst like skill "Mummification".

If someone has used both Guard and Purify and puts themselves in a position where they can be initiated on again, before they are back up, then they not good players - straight up. Or they are a good player who made a mistake - but a good player who repeatedly makes the same mistake isn't a good player. If both of your "don't die" skills are cooling down, you play defensively. You stay out of range of Blota, out of range of Miracle of Nature, etc until you know they have been used. You keep track of if the PLD can shield bash, how many times the MNK has dashed recently, etc. You stay near a corner so you can LOS the BLM or BRD if they swap to you, and so on. It's straight up PEBKAC stuff, man.

AND THERE IS MMR for REAL, did you not play Ranked?
A 4k MMR is way better than a 500 MMR player. Please don't tell me you are good but you cant rank up becoz there is no Rank MMR .

Crystal Credit is not even remotely close to being MMR, man. Like I said, if a clown like me can be top 100, exactly how valuable is that metric? Not at all, I'd say.

About the mechanic issues, I mentioned them clear and fair, if you don't get my point , let me repeat it for you
1. Deployment Tactics CDs 15s , which makes it impossible to have dots and shield spread 100% up time.

2. The Expedient is fair , alittle under but good enough , the main issue in this case combine with Expedient and Adloquium.

3. Using Deployment Tactics for shield is dumb , since the shield worth 4k only and during fight it can't fully goes 4k ( you will be under attack and the shield decrease/ fully absorbed before you try to spread)
so in this , my personal suggestion is remove Adloquium and add Succor instead, this way both Spread Shield issue and Deployment Tactics issue solved.

4. Limit Break is awkward with the 4s limitation.

5. Mummification has good side effects , yet the range makes this skill awkward. It should worth more or the using limitation should ease, since there is no gap closing for SCH.

6. No flipping potential and hard to save teammates ( compare with AST -> instant heal , compare with WHM -> hex for help etc.)

You should not be using Adlo on someone that is currently being hit by the enemy players. You should shield someone who is *not* being targeted but who is in range to spread to all of your teammates. I often just target myself, unless I'm the one being focused. Adlo is a terrible recovery heal (hence your point #6 which is one of SCH's main weaknesses), you use it pretty much for the buffs and shield. There will be times where you might need to double Adlo someone to keep them alive but 16k healing over 2 GCDs is rarely enough anyway. I don't think Adlo needs any buffs. 6k * 5 = 30k shields going out. That's a ton of extra HP you're giving to your team. I agree that it's normally better to use Rec on Bio, but boosted Adlo is good too as long as you're spreading it. It's terrible single target, I agree, but that's fine.

Mummification is fine. It gets so many kills with good coordination. SCH lacking a dash and it having a short range is its primary balancing factors. It's often best used together with Expedient so you don't have to waste any GCDs on sprint, but there's a lot of ways to make good use of it.

And stop teaching me how to play by telling all the skills on paper, I know well how to play SCH and I did about 1k games in high elo Crystal already.
I'm not here to brag or talk about how good I am or try to suppress ppl by MMR or ranking, I talk only the facts and logical descriptions.
Hence, the evidences you say " SCH is perfect" and try to against my standings are all base ON YOUR SAYING , you show no proofs and no logical descriptions.
(I did offer some logical descriptions and wolves league is just one of my proofs.)
All you say is , damn SCH full buff 100% up time and 100% dots up time(which is impossible btw) , ez maxxxxxx damage in matches , if can't maxxxxxx damage = you sucks L2P .

My whole post is not whinnying for SCH, I'm showing that SCH has some issues and if these issue can be solved, the gameplay and game experience will boost.

SCH is already perfectly fine. It needs absolutely no buffs, nerfs, or changes other than reducing pop-up time for Seraph. Other than that it is perfect. Pick rates and win rates are **HORRIBLE** data points to use from a balance perspective, especially if we're using such a tiny data set as top 100's, and even moreso when we're talking about a system *which is not skill-based matchmaking.* I *really* don't want to see SE making unwarranted buffs and nerfs to classes based on how popular they are, that's how you ruin your game faster than any other method. It's horrible mentality.

I've literally told you where you're wrong on your points but apparently this doesn't count because... you disagree with what I'm saying? Nothing you've said is completely true. I've literally provided examples of exactly how it's not true, how what you're saying isn't how it actually is, or how what you're saying is a player skill issue (probably) rather than an "actual" issue. I honestly don't know what you're asking for, man.

I'll stop argue with you for all your standing seems fragile and lack of logical descriptions.
Since you said early kills lead a 10-12s deny LB charge is meaningless, I should stop arguing with you.
Everyone in Crystal Rank should know the whole games are actually playing around with Limit Break , yet you said it is meaningless.

Last , stop insulting people, it really make yourselves clown. We as a human should talk in reasonable and logical way.
My reply to you ends here , I'll not make anymore comments with you .

12 sec delay in LB in a 6+ minute game isn't really that important. *When* you kill people matters a great deal more than *that* you killed them. Killing someone when you can't even push the crystal, or can't make progress pushing it because of some other reason, isn't terribly meaningful except if it allows you to kill more players. But as I've said in a previous response, just because it's a 4v5 now doesn't mean that your team has the advantage. If you spent a lot of mana and cooldowns to make that cool, your team is more than likely *at a disadvantage* because the enemy team still has most of theirs. Even more so when the person you killed is back on the field 12 sec later with all of their cooldowns reset. I've won a ton of mid fights by watching a teammate get dumpstered, we back off, and then push back when the teammate arrives and the enemy still hasn't had time to potion up yet because we keep harassing them - and we know we're safe to harass them because they used a bunch of cooldowns killing that one teammate. Sometimes a death is actually an advantage, if your team is able to take advantage of the resources the other team had to use to kill that player.

I haven't insulted a single person or DC this entire time. Saying that someone is not skilled, or is not skilled enough, is not an insult - it is a statement of fact. People on these forums really just want to take everything as an insult, yet want to have their opinions taken seriously? This is a competitive game. There will be a point where the only objective answer is "you are not good enough" (because you don't understand why you're mistaken, you are unable to perform the solution to your problem, etc.) That *is not an insult.* It's a statement of fact. It's something you can remedy if you are willing to put in the effort and are willing to accept that you may be mistaken on something.

[StriKE_SC2]

I haven't insulted a single person or DC this entire time. Saying that someone is not skilled, or is not skilled enough, is not an insult - it is a statement of fact. People on these forums really just want to take everything as an insult, yet want to have their opinions taken seriously? This is a competitive game. There will be a point where the only objective answer is "you are not good enough" (because you don't understand why you're mistaken, you are unable to perform the solution to your problem, etc.) That *is not an insult.* It's a statement of fact. It's something you can remedy if you are willing to put in the effort and are willing to accept that you may be mistaken on something.

i still think that you said "Honestly, I'm thinking players on Elemental just suck" are too much? haha
do not drag entire DC to this LOL

[Gserpent]

i still think that you said "Honestly, I'm thinking players on Elemental just suck" are too much? haha
do not drag entire DC to this LOL

I was being facetious, but maybe humor doesn't translate well to text. Besides, they were acting as if every engagement in every game was nothing but chained goomba stomps, and that kind of gameplay is something you typically associate with low skill play or games where people otherwise aren't really trying to win (casual queue is very common for this.)

[StriKE_SC2]

I was being facetious, but maybe humor doesn't translate well to text. Besides, they were acting as if every engagement in every game was nothing but chained goomba stomps, and that kind of gameplay is something you typically associate with low skill play or games where people otherwise aren't really trying to win (casual queue is very common for this.)

Well actually i understand both of you.

the "Chained goomba stomps" shouldn't happen in high level game. yes i agree. people should know to reset / retreat waiting for next 5v5.

But in Cytus's point i think its because she play with low level crystal? maybe she is 4k playing with 4 of 100-500 crystal. it may happen that they have tunnel vision. went in and die one by one. and SCH dont have power to return-sweep / make a big impact. (for example SAM,DRG,AST that can turn a tide of the battle sometime)

So i think cytus's point is it's hard to do a rank game because once you are in high rank you have to pair with lower rank. and SCH lack of ability to solo carry 4 ppls (compare to other class)

Sure SCH is good if you play with all good player but SCH just cant do something like other healer can do.

i'm sure if play with all 4k+ crystal player. things will be easier. but Matchmaking balance just mix with low rank : /

but yes. do not assume all DC. elemental is one of the DC that have highest top100 floor (4.2k) and one of the most active DC.

[Gserpent]

Well actually i understand both of you.

the "Chained goomba stomps" shouldn't happen in high level game. yes i agree. people should know to reset / retreat waiting for next 5v5.

But in Cytus's point i think its because she play with low level crystal? maybe she is 4k playing with 4 of 100-500 crystal. it may happen that they have tunnel vision. went in and die one by one. and SCH dont have power to return-sweep / make a big impact. (for example SAM,DRG,AST that can turn a tide of the battle sometime)

So i think cytus's point is it's hard to do a rank game because once you are in high rank you have to pair with lower rank. and SCH lack of ability to solo carry 4 ppls (compare to other class)

Sure SCH is good if you play with all good player but SCH just cant do something like other healer can do.

i'm sure if play with all 4k+ crystal player. things will be easier. but Matchmaking balance just mix with low rank : /

but yes. do not assume all DC. elemental is one of the DC that have highest top100 floor (4.2k) and one of the most active DC.

Right, I get that, but I would be in the same boat and I disagree that SCH is weak or can't carry. A good Seraph will absolutely carry a game - her healing output is *absurd.* And if you're with low rank crystal teammates, you are also going to be *against* low rank crystal players, which means they aren't going to be pushing effectively, won't be coordinating well, etc - all things that SCH can take advantage of. I would take SCH over WHM every single time in crystal, whether low tier or high tier, because it's simply better at carrying and more effective. And AST is better still, but AST is overpowered so I don't think it's a good point of comparison. SCH doesn't have any CC effects, but instead they have tons of buffs and debuffs. Sort of like how SGE doesn't have CC, instead they have 32k burst AOE every 30 sec.

I've noticed both you and them have conflated crystal credit with MMR though. You do realize that it has nothing to do with player skill, right? It's not MMR.

[StriKE_SC2]

Right, I get that, but I would be in the same boat and I disagree that SCH is weak or can't carry. A good Seraph will absolutely carry a game - her healing output is *absurd.* And if you're with low rank crystal teammates, you are also going to be *against* low rank crystal players, which means they aren't going to be pushing effectively, won't be coordinating well, etc - all things that SCH can take advantage of. I would take SCH over WHM every single time in crystal, whether low tier or high tier, because it's simply better at carrying and more effective. And AST is better still, but AST is overpowered so I don't think it's a good point of comparison. SCH doesn't have any CC effects, but instead they have tons of buffs and debuffs. Sort of like how SGE doesn't have CC, instead they have 32k burst AOE every 30 sec.

I've noticed both you and them have conflated crystal credit with MMR though. You do realize that it has nothing to do with player skill, right? It's not MMR.

i understand that. and i also experienced that too

for example : I have a friend who is really good in feast , also in CC too. around 5-6k assume he's playing SCH. and i'm also 6.6k BLM. when we matched against each other.

assume
My team
Me as a 6k , the rest of my team are 0-1000

My friend's team
Him as a 6k , the rest of his team are 0-1000 too

i ended up win the game quite fast. because in same level BLM have carry potential more than SCH. and i play more than 2k games on my main not include my smurf account. its happen a lot.

i get your point btw, SCH have carry potential but compare to many other class. still lack of carry potentials. SCH are more passive make the game easier for team and harder for opponent. but SCH didnt do a KILL SHOT / GAME CHANGER SHOT.
it's a part of design and i understand it. it's just give SCH player a hard time to grind in high rank a bit.


i hope you get my point.

[Gserpent]

Right, SCH can't carry as hard as some classes. That isn't a problem in need of fixing, though. Just because a class can't carry a bunch of bad players in solo queue doesn't make it a weak class, and suggesting that we buff classes like that - which are perfectly fine and quite effective with competent teammates - is how you get overpowered, broken bullshit. I've seen it happen in countless games, buffing non-meta picks not because they are weak, but because they are unpopular for one reason or another. And then those now overpowered picks become dominant and form the new meta.

It's terrible game design and I don't think we should be encouraging it here.

[gioroggia]

I enjoy playing SCH, but I agree with everything you said. The team buff and enemy debuff is very nice on paper, but given how CC matches work, coupling lack of burst damage with lack of crowd control and lack of movement is just... No.

And yeah, if you use your dot well you can be well-placed in the damage table. However, that is all AOE dot damage, the least useful type of damage you can have.

[Gserpent]

And yeah, if you use your dot well you can be well-placed in the damage table. However, that is all AOE dot damage, the least useful type of damage you can have.

Every single point of damage has to be healed.