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  1. #1
    Player
    Rulakir's Avatar
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    Nov 2021
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    977
    Character
    Sajah Lane
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 88
    Quote Originally Posted by Brinne View Post
    Going back to the question of "who is this story for?"
    A lot of people seemed to love it and I haven't been able to pinpoint the disconnect other than generally the people who did accepted the conclusions that were presented. Namely: 1) You cannot change the past, 2) The Ancients were 100% going to become The Plenty, and 3) The Ancients could never figure out a way to deal with a dynamis threat. This, by extension, led them to fully accept that the sundering was not only necessary, but the lesser of two evils. A such, yes, Venat is the tragic heroine as depicted, subjecting mankind to an unthinkable act but the only one which potentially ensured their survival.

    Unfortunately, as has been hashed out repeatedly, this case simply wasn't made. Venat's excuses after Ktsis are all easily debunked with information we received starting from Elidibus in the CT to that point. Both Yoshi-P and Ishikawa refer to Venat's "beliefs". They weren't objective truths nor could they be as it would require her being able to predict with absolute certainty the future of the Ancients. She says herself she has a "basic understanding" of dynamis, but it's not her field of study, so she also lacked the knowledge to conclude the Ancients couldn't counteract Meteion. It also seemed ridiculous to me that Meteion is an Ancient created problem, but Ancients can't create a solution to it?

    According to the internet :P, I'm exactly the type of person to whom Hermes should have resonated and I didn't understand him at all. I found him instead to be emotionally immature and illogical when it came to the subject of death, certainly not the "most human" of the Ancients (a descriptor I see frequently). His temper tantrum in Ktsis was at least consistent with this characterization. The problem is, again, they're trying to re-frame it as something else. Everything regarding the Ancients could be summed up with they show us one thing but tell us it's another. It's the gaslighting expansion.

    Thematically, I can't figure that out either. There doesn't seem to be any consistency as I've seen many people with depression say it spoke to them and many people with depression (like myself) who found it full of platitudes. I absolutely hate the "forge ahead" message they keep pushing. I'm immediately reminded of the people who give unsolicited advice to someone who's suffering, usually without having any idea of what the person is going through. As if a supposedly uplifting quote can be blanket applied to everyone in every situation. Not to mention that this doesn't affect the WoL or Scions at all. None of whom lost anything, display any emotional or psychological damage, or (aside from the WoL in a quest chain that's locked behind a 2 expansion old raid) feel the need to reflect. It's just business as usual. The world itself outside of two zones barely experienced the Final Days, which I was hoping would cause the sundered to have more empathy for the Ancients. Instead, it just feels like a "We're #1!" situation despite their heavy reliance upon the unsundered to succeed.

    All I know for sure is I was not the target audience for this expansion and this is the first time I've experienced this feeling in an RPG. As I said, I think they were focused more on themes and messages than telling a good and compelling story. There are other issues, of course, like being strong-armed through the narrative, my character being forced to react in ways contradictory to myself, and being expected to accept conclusions without the writing having taken the necessary steps for me to reach them.

    This turned into a ramble. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Teraq View Post
    GOD. That goddamned Ultima Thule scene. It's ––– I'm sorry it makes me so mad I'm not sure how to qualify it.
    Same. Especially after the NieR crossover doubled down on Emet's 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak". I could accept what Brinne said about Emet not wanting to upset the WoL, but the leap to commending Venat was too much. I can't help but wonder if that was also Yoshi-P's doing because it was so character inconsistent and didn't match with the surrounding dialog. "We need to have fan favorite, Emet, praise Venat too to really sell her character!" Speaking of which, did anyone else notice his Elpis description of her essentially paints her as a Mary Sue? She's apparently the best there is at everything. :| This also seems in conflict with his other dialog that suggests he didn't like her even back then.
    (12)

  2. #2
    Player
    AziraSyuren's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    566
    Character
    Azira Syuren
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
    Thematically, I can't figure that out either. There doesn't seem to be any consistency as I've seen many people with depression say it spoke to them and many people with depression (like myself) who found it full of platitudes. I absolutely hate the "forge ahead" message they keep pushing. I'm immediately reminded of the people who give unsolicited advice to someone who's suffering, usually without having any idea of what the person is going through.
    There were moments in Endwalker that actually did resonate with me pretty strongly. The big one is the scene with G'raha in Thavnair, because learning when to throw a wrench in it has saved me many a spiral into a depression/anxiety-ridden mess. Seeing a literal manifestation of that was something I enjoyed a lot.

    I also love works where life-affirmation is a central theme, no matter how shallow they might be. There are plenty of other stories where I felt it was executed better, but you could throw it in anything and it'll set off the happy brain chemicals. I didn't much appreciate the "just deal with it 5head" aspect of it but squaring up with the literal embodiment of despair was pretty cool because of the Gurren Lagann vibes it had. I can't say it "spoke to me" on any meaningful level aside from the aforementioned part, though. If I wanted Gurren Lagann I'd just watch Gurren Lagann, because nothing does TTGL like TTGL.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Rulakir's Avatar
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    Nov 2021
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    977
    Character
    Sajah Lane
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 88
    Quote Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai View Post
    Y'shtola feels like a developer's mouthpiece more than a character to me these days.
    Frankly, Yoshi-P has the polar opposite personality of mine. I already have issues with Azem being written as some kind of "chaos goblin", as I've seen on Reddit, and now my WoL is apparently a traveler at heart who is always in search of greater challenges. Since when? It feels like Yoshi-P has a certain idea about the typical gamer he wants to superimpose on the WoL that is just not me. I also don't care for Y'shtola, she's one of my least favorite Scions, so if she's going to become the developer mouthpiece it means I'll never have a moment's peace from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaxia View Post
    But I just couldn't help feeling like the game's overarching theme of "suffering is not only inevitable but something to appreciate because it makes the good times seem even better!" was an absolutely horrible message.
    It is. I suspect that chronic health issues weren't a factor in the writing, which unfortunately makes the messaging come across as tone deaf. I especially hate the "forge ahead" nonsense, which is just another version of 'bootstrap'. At least the Social Darwinism was walked back in the Omega quest chain, although, it amusingly also made the sundering even less justified in the process. The way 6.0 made it appear, basically if you had mental health issues you were screwed.

    I can't remember where I heard it, but something about studies showing that the people who suffer the least were the happiest overall and I couldn't help but laugh because the exact opposite is portrayed in EW. It's one of those r/im14andthisisdeep things that isn't rooted in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by AziraSyuren View Post
    I also love works where life-affirmation is a central theme, no matter how shallow they might be.
    I don't know that I look for themes. I'm more of a character person. As far as characters went, Emet is the one who spoke to me the most. His feeling compelled to continue even when he didn't want to, using sleep as an escape, being isolated with his feelings. All of that is what resonated with me. It's also why I wanted to see him get a happy (or at least happier) ending. Despite all the platitudes of EW, the characters I cared about the most had the worst outcomes so it certainly wasn't a feel good or uplifting story for me.
    (13)

  4. #4
    Player
    jameseoakes's Avatar
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    Aug 2014
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    1,356
    Character
    James Oakes
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
    Frankly, Yoshi-P has the polar opposite personality of mine. I already have issues with Azem being written as some kind of "chaos goblin", as I've seen on Reddit, and now my WoL is apparently a traveler at heart who is always in search of greater challenges. Since when? It feels like Yoshi-P has a certain idea about the typical gamer he wants to superimpose on the WoL that is just not me. I also don't care for Y'shtola, she's one of my least favorite Scions, so if she's going to become the developer mouthpiece it means I'll never have a moment's peace from her.
    .
    The story really seems to be trying to push a characterisation that's almost come out of nowhere on the player character and I find it really jarring as it just kills my immersion and I am finding the supporting cast friendships increasingly forced, I feel like I am being used by Y'stola and not that we are team mates
    (11)

  5. #5
    Player
    Misplaced_Marbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
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    469
    Character
    Violent Saviour
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by jameseoakes View Post
    The story really seems to be trying to push a characterisation that's almost come out of nowhere on the player character and I find it really jarring as it just kills my immersion.
    EW is like the dark knight story in that regard.
    (4)

  6. #6
    Player Theodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    10,051
    Character
    Matthieu Desrosiers
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by jameseoakes View Post
    The story really seems to be trying to push a characterisation that's almost come out of nowhere on the player character and I find it really jarring as it just kills my immersion and I am finding the supporting cast friendships increasingly forced, I feel like I am being used by Y'stola and not that we are team mates
    Yep. It happens on two fronts as well.

    On one hand, the story itself will insist that the player has to consider G'raha Tia to essentially be their best friend. On the other, there's a portion of vocal players who insist that the player is obligated to dislike certain characters and factions. If they don't? Then they're attacked and accused of all manner of horrid things. It's very bizarre to me.
    (9)

  7. #7
    Player YukikoKurosawa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    568
    Character
    Yukiko Kurosawa
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by jameseoakes View Post
    The story really seems to be trying to push a characterisation that's almost come out of nowhere on the player character and I find it really jarring as it just kills my immersion and I am finding the supporting cast friendships increasingly forced, I feel like I am being used by Y'stola and not that we are team mates
    This happened the moment ShB established that "actually the player character (who is supposed to be a blank slate with no official backstory or personality) is the reincarnation of a super awesome and powerful convocation member who was all about adventuring and stuff that's why you're character is became an adventurer", which breaks the entire point of having a blank slate character in an RPG : not having an established backstory or personality.

    And now they are quite blatantly forcing this "adventurer at heart" persona onto us , one's own personal RP for their character be damned.
    (8)