Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Cleretic]

Uh, we didn’t know that her followers souls were literally consumed and extinguished though which is my point, and which is something they had answered in a QnA. Their souls are gone. Like gone gone. We don’t know if her followers willingly did it knowing their souls would be extinguished, in fact what we see in 5.2 contradicts this, in that they say they’ll miss venat. They can’t really miss her if they don’t exist anymore now can they?

Except that we now have a direct testimony from one of Venat's followers saying that, while he wasn't without reservations, they weren't about what would happen to them; they were about what would happen to Venat. And this appears to be the exact same follower we heard those doubts from in 5.2, so we can trust it to be the same doubts.

If we consider Fake Hythlodaeus in Ocean-Floor Amaurot an authority and an accurate representation of both the person and the events they describe, then we must also give the Watcher the exact same courtesy. To do otherwise would be a double standard.

[Yuella]

Venat's action was totally justified. She was protecting innocent people from murderers. In real life, cops are allowed to shoot the bad guys in a hostage situation. Emet-Selch on the other hand, was a genocidal maniac who had no right to decide that the sundered beings don't deserve to live.

[Rulakir]

Case 1) Player vehemently disagrees to Hydaelyns / Venats actions:

-> Player journeys to Elpis -> Disagreeing with Venat's Actions, refuses to work alongside her knowing what she would do ->>???? (How do you progress this storyline?)

The WoL doesn't have a choice. Venat is the one with all the knowledge and power, we have but ever been a pawn. We can disagree with her and still have to do everything the same because she's given us no other option except to flee. The Scions could have chided her, as they should. Instead, we start off with Krile, who was supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motives upon learning she's a primal, willingly offer up her body to her because apparently she was too charming to resist and ending with Alisaie yelling, "No, this can't be happening!" upon her defeat. Our moral paragons consistently fawn over, so I can't accept that it's presented as morally grey. The only person who calls Venat out is herself and she has no regrets, the outcome is exactly what she wanted.

Meanwhile, dialog options for the WoL are abysmal. Something as simple as, "I don't agree with what you've done, but you've left me with no choice but to see this through," would have made a difference. Aside from being able to tell her you can't trust her on the boat, there's never a single other dialog option that's not positive towards her throughout 6.0.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Except that we now have a direct testimony from one of Venat's followers saying that, while he wasn't without reservations, they weren't about what would happen to them; they were about what would happen to Venat. And this appears to be the exact same follower we heard those doubts from in 5.2, so we can trust it to be the same doubts.

If we consider Fake Hythlodaeus in Ocean-Floor Amaurot an authority and an accurate representation of both the person and the events they describe, then we must also give the Watcher the exact same courtesy. To do otherwise would be a double standard.

One follower though, out of hwoever many there were. And again, its a bit spotty because how could they miss her if there souls were consumed? If they knew this there shouldnt be even any sentiment like that. It makes Venat look even more shady now.

[Brightamethyst]

"All were justified" is my choice.
Though I don't really agree with the means. Each believed theirs is for the greater good. A woman who wanted the future to be there, a man who was consumed by curiosity and equal treatment, and an old man who want to have his nostalgic days back.

I chose the same option for the same reason.

It's easy for us as outside observers to sit here and argue philosophy after the fact, but in the moment each one of them made what they truly believed was the right choice at the time. Whether I personally would have mode those same choices is irrelevant.

[Lium]

When I got to this part of the quest, my immediate thought was, “Well, this will make all the people that disagreed with Venat happy.”������

I personally chose none were justified because though I cannot stand Emet-Selch, neither Venat or Hermes are excused for what they did. And I don’t believe any one of them were seeking justification for their actions. They were doing what they thought was right.

To hear Omega break it down, however, Hermes was the one who had the most logical reason for doing what he did. He put humankind on trial, the same way all other species and civilizations have had to face the same question. Will they adapt and evolve? Or die off. Omega then tied this to his own ancestors who chose to give up their flesh for machines in order to survive.

On a personal note, this strikes close to home for me because of my own utter disdain for humanity and what it represents. I look at the state of the world and people in general and really do wish it could put on trial somehow. So it’s a good thing I don’t have the power of an ancient! ������

In the end, saying none were justified also matched Azem’s thinking from what we know. It seems as though they went their own way, and didn’t join either Venat or Emet’s faction.

So the WoL going their own way is true to the character.

[Havenchild]

The WoL doesn't have a choice. Venat is the one with all the knowledge and power, we have but ever been a pawn. We can disagree with her and still have to do everything the same because she's given us no other option except to flee. The Scions could have chided her, as they should. Instead, we start off with Krile, who was supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motives upon learning she's a primal, willingly offer up her body to her because apparently she was too charming to resist and ending with Alisaie yelling, "No, this can't be happening!" upon her defeat. Our moral paragons consistently fawn over, so I can't accept that it's presented as morally grey. The only person who calls Venat out is herself and she has no regrets, the outcome is exactly what she wanted.

Meanwhile, dialog options for the WoL are abysmal. Something as simple as, "I don't agree with what you've done, but you've left me with no choice but to see this through," would have made a difference. Aside from being able to tell her you can't trust her on the boat, there's never a single other dialog option that's not positive towards her throughout 6.0.

That's basically my point though. These options are not present because they have to push the story forward in a compelling and "consistent" way. To use your own example, "I don't agree with what you've done, but you've left me with no choice but to see this through", doesn't really add much. It's basically just a false narrative that ultimately is dropped in the next sentence. Nothing to expand on that point in the MSQ. You essentially disagree but you do everything she needs you to do anyway. I think that falls short imo because it will have no impact on the actions the character takes which I think would actually break immersion for some. With such a big "choice", it feels lackluster to allow disagreement but not see it through to the end.
But maybe that's just how I read that. I hate half assed measures in story writing personally. Either commit to give us full on narratives where we have the true and willfull choice to disagree and the story can follow through, or move the story forward in a centralized and controlled way.

From inception, the PC is by story design, a neutral to lawful good character in a morally grey universe. The morally grey comes from multiple clashing perspectives both players and in-game characters will have after experiencing the story events, not necesarily the choices you can make. PC COULD understand or disagree with the motives/actions of characters, but they ultimately side with the option that saves the most lives (or at certain points mankind). That alone already forces the story in a controlled narrative. The initial remark to Hydaelyn in the beginning of EW about "not trusting" her fits into the narrative post SHB after clashing with Emet, as he painted Hydaelyn in a completely negative light and many questions were "up in the air" at that point.

Those extra options are just bones they toss dissenters however, and I don't think you can even satisfy this group with that alone by just adding more of them. Least not from what I've seen from the feedback on the forums. Seems like people want more diverse expression thats impactful to the story or at least the feedback you get from characters, but it's still very hard to do so while controlling the narrative of the story and pushing it in a certain direction. Atm it's cohesive enough, but adding more layers (or outliers) of differing opinions would be a big undertaking and they would have to drastically change how they handle the story telling.

Might be an unironic shortcoming of FFXIV but this isn't exactly Fable either.

[KageTokage]

Venat's action was totally justified. She was protecting innocent people from murderers.

I'm...confused as to who/what you're referring to by that.

If it was in reference to that third round of sacrifices to be offered to Zodiark, we have virtually no context behind what they were and one has to remember that the Sundering affected all life negatively. Even if she truly had done it with the intent of protecting lives as opposed to subjecting mankind to her own trial, she irreparably damaged every being upon Etheriys in the process, though the Ancients seem to have gotten the worst of it due to being considerably denser in aether then any of their creations.

[Cleretic]

One follower though, out of hwoever many there were. And again, its a bit spotty because how could they miss her if there souls were consumed? If they knew this there shouldnt be even any sentiment like that. It makes Venat look even more shady now.

I'm gonna quote you the actual lines said by the Watcher, because I think they're actually very different from what you read, and are really worth a repeat read-through to pick up on details we missed the first time through. ...which I have to do by transcribing a Youtube video, because for some reason this cutscene isn't in the Unending Journey despite having that level of information density and re-read value.

At the time of your journey to the past, the one whose essence I embody would have been a scholar at Anyder. A shame. Had you reason to go there, perhaps you might have met. As a man of learning, he was firm friends with Venat. They spent long hours trading theories, or debating the laws of the universe. I "remember" joining her faction as the Final Days bore down on us. Yet of the events surrounding that tragedy, I recall precious little. Hydaelyn wished for the people of your age to decide their own path, thus I suspect my recollection was limited by design.

Yet even She could not cut away one persistent memory... I feel most distinctly his sadness at what was to come to pass. That in becoming Hydaelyn's heart, Venat would forever stand apart from the people she so loved. If she were so resolved in her convictions, then he, too, would share her sleepless vigil over the future yet to unfold. Thus was the vow he made to Venat as her transformation took hold. His fervent wish must have reached her in some fashion... for though his life was drained away by the summoning, he was reborn with new form and new purpose when I awoke as the watcher of the moon.

And you heard, PlayerName. You felt. You thought. And in seizing the future for yourselves have you brought full circle the saga which Venat began. What you accomplished was no divine miracle. It was but the beacon of hope, passed down from one generation to the next; a succession of wishes and prayers reshaping the star into the world we knew you deserved. You have our deepest gratitude. I thank you not only as myself, but as the man I once was, and on behalf of those who devoted themselves to Venat's vision.

<At this point Omega pipes up>

So, there's a couple really neat things to cover here, that I admit even I missed in my first read.

• The Watcher seems like he might have the actual, literal soul of Anyder Guy. Which would make him more than a construct, more than Fake Hythlodaeus, and confirmably the last Ancient still standing.
• Incidentally, this would also shut out the theory that the Twelve are Venat's followers, because there were exactly enough for that theory to work, but with one accounted for as The Watcher, suddenly that idea's out the window.
• It seems that Venat was a natural Friend To The Nerds, so Anamnesis wasn't just an incidental meeting place. It also suggests her group was pretty educated, and so were probably pretty hard to pull the wool over.
• The events around the End of Days were deliberately blanked out so as to give us a clean slate on thinking about it. That tickles me because it basically makes text the reason that those events have also been left vague to us as players; because it's intentionally meant to be questions that we decide the answers to ourselves.
• Pretty explicit confirmation that yeah, Venat's followers knew exactly what they were signing up for. It was a decision they made in full knowledge of what it entailed.
• Most importantly to this: he wasn't worrying about her because he expected to continue to have her around, as we initially thought about that scene. Rather, it's because he understood that as Hydaelyn's heart, she would eternally be looking at the world she loved from the outside. 'You will be missed' wasn't him speaking personally that he would miss her--he knew full well that he wouldn't exactly have the capacity for that. He was speaking larger; he was saying that the world itself will be sadder for not having her. This actually holds through with what the Watcher had to say post-Mothercrystal if you talked to him (which sadly you can't do after the Omega quests because now he's talking about Elpis), where he talked about how even though Hydaelyn is gone, she lives on through the aether that was part of her now flowing through the world; from his perspective, she has now rejoined the world she loves, which was his big lamentation.

That speech is one of the bigger casualties of not being in the Unending Journey; that's actually a LOT of information that you don't necessarily pick up on in the initial read.

[Rulakir]

It's basically just a false narrative that ultimately is dropped in the next sentence. Nothing to expand on that point in the MSQ.

That's how it's always been. People know going in that they'll be playing through a story on rails, FFXIV has never offered much in the way of choice, but it allows the individual player some measure of agency even if it amounts to nothing.

Perhaps if this were applied consistently it'd be less obvious, but it's particularly egregious when it comes to certain characters you're simply not allowed to like or dislike. The one exception I can think of is Zenos at the end of 4.0. I could choose to accept him, which is only time I remember being given a non-aggressive response to an antagonist. SB in general I recall as offering much more in the way of diverse dialog options, it's gotten increasingly worse to abysmal in EW to where I feel like it's back to ARR levels with my character just nodding in agreement to everything. It's dull.

From inception, the PC is by story design, a neutral to lawful good character in a morally grey universe. PC COULD understand or disagree with the motives of characters, but they ultimately side with the option that saves the most lives. That alone already forces the story in a controlled narrative. Those extra options are just bones they toss dissenters, and I don't think you can even satisfy this group with that alone. Least not from what I've seen from the feedback on the forums.

I'd argue it's less dissenters than those who'd like to maintain the illusion of having some agency in their character. Aside from dialog options, EW has also imposed a personality upon my WoL now. Suddenly I'm a traveler who's interested in fighting ever challenging foes. Since when? It honestly feels like I'm just playing Yoshi-P's interpretation of the WoL at this point and it sucks. There's so much we won't ever know about Azem because they say they don't want to tread on 'headcanon' and yet they consistently trample over what little headcanon we're allowed to have even as the WoL. I think if I'm just going to be RPing as an already developed character there's no real point in having dialog options at all. Three different ways of saying the same thing is what's pointless. It's not even an illusion of choice at that point, it's just insulting. :P