i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

[dspguy]

I'm sort of with the other posters that kind of feel that many jobs are cookie cutter. Tanks and healers especially. DPS to a slightly lesser extent. Nearly all DPS follow a "build up a gauge and then expend that gauge for big damage." Hell, when I think about tanks - I have their hotbars set up nearly identically. The 1-2-3 / 1-2-4 combo. The AOE combo. The same 4 mitigation abilities with different names. The job-specific short-term, low cooldown mitigation ability. The automatically fill your gauge and/or free gauge use abilities. Etc etc. For the most part, I can play any tank with near identical hotbars with only minor variations. The same can be said for healers.

DPS is more varied than that which I appreciate. But it nearly always boils down to "build gauge, expend gauge."

I thought this thread was going to boil down to "we need a utility class." That will never truly happen due to the tank/healer/DPSx2 nature of this game. And I'm ok with it. I feel the game is missing something without it, but frankly, the game is so good that I overlook that gaping hole. The closest we had to a utility class was pre-rework AST. They had single-target and multi-target DPS buffs, defense buffs, MP regen, TP regen, etc. While it was based on random draws from a deck, I felt that given the nature of how those draws worked, I commonly was able to provide what was necessary. Of course, damage buffs was all anybody really wanted

[pikalovr]

people really out here saying all DPS are varied when BRD and DNC both chase procs and oGCD usage for damage. MNK literally has NIN chakras sorry i mean mudras but imo better done (mainly cause you deal damage for each "mudra" and can proc leaden during PB.)

when i say i want jobs varied and unique i want BRD for example to lean more into songs and having to keep up a tempo with each song to achieve bonuses. (imagine each song having a tempo that plays out over 10 seconds. 4 GCDs and the hard part comes from timing Ogcds (off-beats in-between each beat (GCD)) (this wouldn't work but it's an over exaggeration to provide an example)

DNC could have a large DDR pad appear on the arena, prolly around the center of the arena to not mess with super little arenas. and actually physically have to move to each arrow to perform their dance (this wouldn't work but it's just an example)

MNK needs to go back to being the fast boi with heavy amounts of oGCD weaving inbetweeen GCDs. (think like GNB continuation.) which allows you to keep up high damage and speed. (i'm not asking for grease stacks back but maybe something similar and a bit more polished since the rework happened) or you know what i thought about? giving us a proper reason to use each elemental fist and turning MNK into more of a stance dancer

NIN is fine as is mudras are a great and unique mechanic. although i wish we had reasons to use more of the end results but i digress. ninki being spent for ninja like abilities are great. and the main ability you spend it on your shadow clone is really unique. but outside of the shadow clone the other two ninki spenders are just ninja flavored single target gauge spender and ninja flavored AOE gauge spender.

which brings me up to my biggest gripe. gauges just basically being do you want x job flavored single target ability or x job flavored AOE ability that only deal damage. and it sucks cause we do get unique resource spenders. like esteem for DRK, shadow clone jutsu for NIN, kaiten used to be for SAM. but heaven forbid we give NIN like a ninki spender to reduce mudra CD by 5seconds, or DRK a way to extend esteems timer, etc...

my point being just cause SOME jobs are varied or unique like BLM RPR DRG SAM RDM and SMN doesn't mean the others shouldn't be looked at. or combat overall (gauges, resource management, jobs basically having the same mechanics etc...)

also i'd like to touch once again on the whole "META" picks thing. every single multiplayer game in existence has META picks. even now literally RN you can form a proper highest DPS team in this game but does that stop people from excluding jobs outside of top tier play? even when PLD was quite literally the worst tank in existence DPS wise they could still find parties to join and clear with.

[VentVanitas]

MNK needs to go back to being the fast boi with heavy amounts of oGCD weaving inbetweeen GCDs. (think like GNB continuation.) which allows you to keep up high damage and speed. (i'm not asking for grease stacks back but maybe something similar and a bit more polished since the rework happened) or you know what i thought about? giving us a proper reason to use each elemental fist and turning MNK into more of a stance dancer

Late Stormblood MNK had stance dancing and it was neat. Honestly if they fixed latency problems with swapping stances, removed the slow on Riddle of Fire (and the forced stance swap when using Riddle skills back then), then it probably would've been the best iteration of the job imo.

[Kranel_San]

The main reason why classes and Jobs have become somewhat homogenized over the years is actually due to a conscious determination by Yoshi to avoid the Job favourtism FFXI suffered from, where players determined what Job worked best for what content and made that the meta, and shunned anyone who dared think otherwise even when alternative Jobs and sub job combinations were a viable alternative (some Jobs simply found it impossible to ever get parties or clear content).

In an effort to avoid a repeat of those problems, Yoshi wants FFXIV to be accessible to everyone, not just the hardcore players, and the result of that is to try and prevent favouritism of classes/Jobs or class metas appearing by streamlining class and Job gameplay into a more common concept based on role.

Of course there is still a certain amount of it in FFXIV, (such as the WAR-every other tank class belief) but it's nothing like what FFXI had. I guess a balanced approach is probably better, but Yoshi has made his choice and is sticking to it.

Even though I actually dislike homogenizing the jobs. I realize there is no escaping either it or favoritism. One is sacrificed for the other.
We either have unique jobs but with favourism
Or
Have homogenized jobs but content is accessed for everyone.

Speaking of balancing. I have been thinking for a while about the potential of AI in balancing jobs. What if companies developed AI enough for it to be utilized in balancing. Might it be the beginning of finally having nearly perfectly balanced jobs while maintaining a unique design?

[pikalovr]

Late Stormblood MNK had stance dancing and it was neat. Honestly if they fixed latency problems with swapping stances, removed the slow on Riddle of Fire (and the forced stance swap when using Riddle skills back then), then it probably would've been the best iteration of the job imo.

this is my biggest gripe with the whole well X expansion of job did it and it wasn't done well. ok and? if it was unique and worked why not instead of immediately dismissing it. think about what made it bad and you know fix the problems instead of just gutting it from the kit. hell even SHB MNK fists had their reasons/niches to be used. wind zoom zoom, fire DPS time bb, earth well tanks dead guess i'm OT.

also i'm not trying to be mean towards you or anything cause i think thats how i come off here XD

[Mikey_R]

this is my biggest gripe with the whole well X expansion of job did it and it wasn't done well. ok and? if it was unique and worked why not instead of immediately dismissing it. think about what made it bad and you know fix the problems instead of just gutting it from the kit. hell even SHB MNK fists had their reasons/niches to be used. wind zoom zoom, fire DPS time bb, earth well tanks dead guess i'm OT.

also i'm not trying to be mean towards you or anything cause i think thats how i come off here XD

You had to jump through hoops to get a very very minimal damage gain out of Tornado Kick at the end of SB. Bear in mind, you lost GL3, so you had to use PB and RoW to get it back, considering you were doing less damage, the gain from TK was small.

Also, the fists in ShB did NOT have a reason to be used except for damage focus. You started with Fire until you built up GL3, then switched to Wind for GL4, then stayed in GL4 for the rest of the fight. There was no reason to go back unless you lost GL4. GL was causing alot of problems and was outdated in it's implementation, which is why they are now traits. This also meant FoF was back as the damage fist, and so it was used almost all the time.

I would go through your other post, however it is full of overly simple comparisons and what seems to be a lack of understanding of the game itself. Even some of your points are already in the game implemented into an MMO setting (DDR steps? Is that not what Standard and Technical Steps are?)

[pikalovr]

You had to jump through hoops to get a very very minimal damage gain out of Tornado Kick at the end of SB. Bear in mind, you lost GL3, so you had to use PB and RoW to get it back, considering you were doing less damage, the gain from TK was small.

Also, the fists in ShB did NOT have a reason to be used except for damage focus. You started with Fire until you built up GL3, then switched to Wind for GL4, then stayed in GL4 for the rest of the fight. There was no reason to go back unless you lost GL4. GL was causing alot of problems and was outdated in it's implementation, which is why they are now traits. This also meant FoF was back as the damage fist, and so it was used almost all the time.

I would go through your other post, however it is full of overly simple comparisons and what seems to be a lack of understanding of the game itself. Even some of your points are already in the game implemented into an MMO setting (DDR steps? Is that not what Standard and Technical Steps are?)

funny you bring up not understanding the game when i quite literally brought up each fist has it's own NICHE uses wind was pretty much always the go to for inbetween mob running in dungeons and solo unsyncing dungeons. earth fist has been used in quite a few scenarios or do i need to bring up one tank one healer TEA? you know where thanks to the extra DR and the PLD/healer heals the MNK could offtank for a period and be fine. also i asked for grease stacks to be polished to work in the new MNK cause it would have to anyways since it's been reworked. or something similar but focused on ramping damage or even greater AS if they really wanna get wacky

if you actually read what was being typed and not dismiss everything at a glance you might actually learn something

also once again i literally stated the DDR thing wouldn't work. it was an example of how to make mechanics that feel more in tune with how the job should play/feel. hitting colored buttons in a pattern isn't very different than hitting the same 3 mudras over and over again for example, the only thing that makes it even remotely more interesting is the fact the order can be random. but as a DNC you never really feel like you're dancing and doing damage thats what the arena DDR would accomplish giving the feeling of hitting each dance step (arrow). while not being locked out of dealing damage while you dance. if you could at least use oGCDs while doing each step for standard and technical step. sure that'd also be a good middle ground but instead of you know suggesting that as a valid counterargument you just dismiss the idea entirely. which is the point i made about dismissing things instead of thinking on them.

[Mikey_R]

[QUOTE=pikalovr;5981124]funny you bring up not understanding the game when i quite literally brought up each fist has it's own NICHE uses wind was pretty much always the go to for inbetween mob running in dungeons and solo unsyncing dungeons. earth fist has been used in quite a few scenarios or do i need to bring up one tank one healer TEA? you know where thanks to the extra DR and the PLD/healer heals the MNK could offtank for a period and be fine
A niche use does not make something good. Titan Egi used to be able to tank Ramuh EX solo, that was a niche use, should that have stayed?

It is clearly an unintended design choice that a Monk could tank something and this could have been one of the reasons why they decided that the fists had to go. Also, it doesn't matter how fast you go in a dungeon, you still have to wait for the tank regardless.

if you actually read what was being typed and not dismiss everything at a glance you might actually learn something

If you actually looked deeper at each job and not force them into an overly simplified state, you would realise they are more than just what you describe.

Take you example of Dancer/Bard. You imply that they play the same as they chase procs. What about Monk and Black Mage? They rely on procs? Too far away? How about Red Mage, they go after procs more frequently. Would you say they all play the same? Of course not. Even going to Bard and Dancer, they do not play alike at all.

also once again i literally stated the DDR thing wouldn't work. it was an example of how to make mechanics that feel more in tune with how the job should play/feel. hitting colored buttons in a pattern isn't very different than hitting the same 3 mudras over and over again for example, the only thing that makes it even remotely more interesting is the fact the order can be random. but as a DNC you never really feel like you're dancing and doing damage thats what the arena DDR would accomplish giving the feeling of hitting each dance step (arrow). while not being locked out of dealing damage while you dance. if you could at least use oGCDs while doing each step for standard and technical step. sure that'd also be a good middle ground but instead of you know suggesting that as a valid counterargument you just dismiss the idea entirely. which is the point i made about dismissing things instead of thinking on them.

But if you know it isn't going to work, why suggest it in the first place? Why not try and think of something that COULD work. Maybe what we got is after loads of dev ideas and this is the one they decided fit the best? Also, if you add damage to steps, woldn't that just make it similar to chakras? People always compare Chakras to Mudras, so, if steps ate like mudras in that they have no damage, then adding in damage makes the mundras right? As for using oGCDs during the steps, I could make the argument that NOT allowing them in the steps gives you more to think about. Do you do it before and potentially delay the step, do you wait until after etc. I though tis was the kind of thinking you wanted? (Not that you have enough time to weave in oGCDs between steps without delaying them as it is now anyway).

You also seem to not like gauges, but, how else are you going to keep track of a resource? Even if you want to have multiple uses of the gauge (Kaiten/Shinten/Senei), you just used a different arbitrary line as to when you should use your action. Rather than being able to use it freely, you only use it at 45+ as, in the case with Samurai, that is the cost of Kaiten + Shinten, so that, when you use Shinten, you always had enough for a Kaiten. Granted, losing Kaiten was bad, however, from the posts I have read on the matter, most of them were aimed towards the aesthetic of Kaiten rather than the gauge management.

I could go indepth with each job and show how they all play differently (except maybe healers), however, I would think it better if you took the time to really look at a job and understand it better than the surface level you seem to be stuck at.

[Oizen]

They could probably nerf Bloodwhetting and Nacent Flash by like 50% of its healing and it still be insane lol

[AziraSyuren]

The jobs play a lot more different than a lot of people give them credit for when you really get down to it. Even healers have enough of a difference in their tools to make fights easier. Most content doesn't push you enough to make those differences known, though, and even in higher end content, a lot of jobs mainly define their differences more by their outputs at certain points in a rotation or a fight than their toolkits, which results in them still feeling same-y at the end of the day. It ends up creating the same "preferring x jobs in x content" effect with none of the benefits that come from goofier job design outside of not being locked out of any of the many "Striking Dummy Fights of the Tier: Savage" PFs, and not feeling like a jackass when you bring a Paladin into Expert Roulette because you literally did not have AoE.

I will say, however, that many of the differences people think of when they laud the Olden Days of Job Design ended up making certain jobs feel worse rather than unique or interesting.