Yoshi's Comment on Future Job Design - Are Jobs

[Jaquan]

I do wonder if making all content trust-compatible will allow them to worry less about job balance. If your three AI buddies perform pretty consistently, then it doesn't matter as much how balanced your job of choice is. There aren't other players around to complain about your performance.

Unless the goal would be to push more players to trusts which ultimately do offer inferior experience i don't think there ever should be a reason to forgo balance. I can't with good conscience agree with the notion of "casuals wouldn't care whether you play better or worse class". From my experience it's actually casuals who blindly follow the tier lists. It gives them another way to push the blame away from themselves. It's not their fault the party wiped, it's that guy who picked lower tier job and so his DPS/Healing/Durability were lacking which lead to the wipe. It's all their fault. Seen it way too many times to assume here it would be any different.

I'm all for the jobs having more ways to express and differenciate themselves but I do hope that should that happen they'd still remain closely balanced.

[Shougun]

I actually like the condense of SMN and believe it should be done even more*, but continue to add more features at the same time (and I do think the complexity of SMN is a bit late, move some stuff up sooner lol). I think the PvP template is interesting, though of course for PvE you need more- and each button ideally being condensed and useful. Sort of an expansion on the MOBA concept (so instead of 40 buttons that do one thing, or a MOBA being 4 buttons that do 8 things you've got like 16 that do 30 interesting things, and most of those 16 being pressed decently often).

*Though I know not everyone likes to work with a smaller hot bar, to me... personally.. a huge hot bar is not what makes something fun, I would be much happier with the same features in less buttons (or maybe more features, and in less buttons). So I'm not suggesting all jobs have to have the same thing done, since I do believe sometimes a job should have a quirk just for those types of players like "oh that's the 15% harder to play DD, with 0.5% more damage, because some people are masochists" etc lol. I'm not into pulling the carpet on people, just stating my preference in not having to have four full hotbars because a lot of abilities could be combined but weren't "because because".

I do wish there was more elements of uniqueness for jobs. One I've tried suggesting for a while now that is fairly innocent is roleplay strictly related additions. For example Dragoon being able to jump higher than other jobs in areas they've unlocked flying. It's balanced to content design (wont ruin MSQ progression), impactful to the concept that you can jump high, and doesn't impact something like ultimate which needs very tight balance. There are a lot of things like this that could help separate each job. Something I feel WoW does much better than FFXIV. That said I don't like how in WoW you can't do everything on one character, like you can't be a crafter of all the crafts- very annoying (imo), so given FFXIV's job design I feel such serious negative impacts of differences is even less because if you wanted to jump high.. "just play dragoon" and also "you're making a big deal out of something that doesn't impact your invitation to difficult content, aka.. "why"..".

Differences that go beyond that are nice of course, but more difficult if you're trying to make very sharply tuned balance at the same time. Like when Paladin got repeat button press atonement I was like "aw man I don't want fel cleave". Now the special effect is really cool on confiteor though (so the art design offsets the gameplay lol).

WoW definitely has significant differences between some jobs, and within the specs themselves sometimes which is very cool - but it's also fairly common to have a garbage spec that no one wants to see you on because it does actually just pull large amounts of aether through a garden hose. I read that in the new expansion WoW is making alts even friendlier closer to the point that an alt is almost like FFXIV job changing system (not quite, but ish), and if they improved their balance (and stop making certain specs consistently bad lol), that could pose an interesting competition to FFXIV. Not saying anything for certain yet, because the expansion is not even out so we're all on hot air but I'm hoping FFXIV is ready to answer the call for improved competition (potentially).

Two ideas that I have when watching paint dry.. that would be far more dangerous, maybe to think about for a new/different game, but allow significantly larger differences in jobs would be:

a) Jobs have two components, the wild very role play designed job with differences as wild as how you actually progress content. Like one job might just approach content entirely different. The easy example being perhaps Blue Mage levels by learning spells. All jobs have their design based on what is both thematic and fun but only on a basic level ensuring balance (which means never purposefully make one job way better than another, and hope each job has a moment to shine, but don't' destroy a functional and fun pile of jobs because another job's concept doesn't perform as well in that concept). THEN also having a more PvP / savage / ultimate build which is made to be highly balanced (with some quirks still naturally), with probably the same sort of reduced number of buttons but with content that is extremely demanding to replace the lower buttons. Once you can echo content you can enter it with either form (the PvP version attempting to take the best notes and themes to not make it feel like two separate jobs but rather a distillation of the wild and loose form). Because most content the wild form will be in wont be hyper difficult even jobs that are unoptimized for the situation can still 'win', but everyone is going to be in a much stronger state of asymmetry.

b) Move a lot of customization into some other new concept, to keep value and fun in leveling, but make gearing and gaining 'combat' levels fairly easy- such that you design the game to actually expect players to change for situations. Might even allow players to change jobs in some content. Huge levels of care needed to ensure that the solution to every problem isn't "black mage burn" though, as was a classic when balance was a bit off in FFXIV (1.0) and FFXI (sometimes). In this situation somehow the stats need to be more separated from the classic end goal of glamours, so everyone is working for the cool new things, but somehow at the same time it isn't a HUGE pain in the chocobo when you hear "no red mage" because you've easily got three other options to come as. Jobs are more asymmetrical but it's also less taxing to expect a player to know and have multiple jobs leveled (and perhaps might even be a requirement for some content).


My own wish in one hand and something in the other though would be adding far more roleplay elements that don't impact balance in every way that is fun and interesting as much as possible for all jobs, and then adding more asymmetry than is currently present but still try to get everyone within a general expectation of value. Due to this... savage and ultimate would have moments where your job isn't as desired.. and.. that sucks ;/... Perhaps there can be an auto balance system that takes participation rates for jobs and increases the bonus for having one of that job in your party. So if your job is the least likely to be picked then it'll have the highest bonus. Would be interesting to see if players try to manipulate that system though lol.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I do wonder if making all content trust-compatible will allow them to worry less about job balance. If your three AI buddies perform pretty consistently, then it doesn't matter as much how balanced your job of choice is, you can still clear content. And then there aren't other players around to complain about your performance.

It won't matter since raids exist. That's almost exclusively the place where all that stuff is concentrated.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Job identity loss in FFXIV IMO is a result of the game pretty much abandoning the RPG part of MMORPG.

Generally in RPGs all enemies aren't made equal. Enemy types would have different elemental weaknesses/resistances/immunities/absorption. Different resistances to physical damage whether it was all physical damage or just specific types like piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, etc... This at its core would make certain characters/classes/builds excel against some things but fall behind against others. RPGs would also promote horizontal progression options via gear in the form of set bonuses, added effects, skill bonuses, skill augmentations, etc...

FFXIV has gone the route of removing all build diversity and replacing it powercreep making raw stat numbers bigger while trying to make it so every job within a role type has the same tool kit.

[KurohNeko]

An article is making rounds about Yoshi discussing that they feel they will have to make brand new jobs tailored to xiv

I feel that job design is now squandered by their battle system. Right now all the jobs are basically a set 1 2 3 combo, a burst window with some buffs, and maybe flashy endgame skills that are basically just raw damage. They can't really create cool skill interactions like a MOBA can because they fear job pick disparity. However, I do recognize how much additional testing would be needed for any moderately hard encounters like ex, savage, and ultimate if they did diversify skills more. Ninja and early astrologian were the last jobs they pushed skill usage. Gauges, which originally seemed cool in stormblood, are left at the wayside now only meant to track a 0-100 resource and a 3 stack mechanic. Though there are some successes like BLM from its inception and Monk finally getting good treatment for endwalker, you don't really manage them as they just proc naturally with your burst rotation. Healers slightly have to manage it, but AST is just gutted.
The only job identity I feel now is in pvp skills. Even with just 9 skills, every job feels unique with a focused gameplan on how you want to utilize your kit. I hope someday PvE may feel the same. Though damage output may be the best so far, there's currently a lot of backlash with job decision like SAM for removing its ogcd and NIN for its clunky ogcd like 2 different raijus where they are effectively the same except one is a gap close. How do you feel about the battle system and current job design?

What's funny is even with making all jobs cookie cutters of others and trying to make everything so damn casual friendly and doing their damndest to remove meta we still have meta and jobs that are basically worthless.

Some jobs will be meta and superior to others with others being something only casuals or those who play just for fun will play. That's ok. It's ok for different jobs to have greatly varying playstyles like the classes in Monster Hunter that some casuals will be discouraged that their Dark Knight plays a way they don't want too and doesn't play like a warrior. That's ok.

[KurohNeko]

I believe YoshiP has to stop playing BLM to try out the other jobs. Maybe then he will get a better idea of what needs to be done. PvE job identities are in a ridiculous state, to the point I may call it the worst in the genre.
Maybe someone else or a group of people has to take on job designs and work around an overhaul.

The fact the head dev of this game has a main shouldn't be allowed. He doesn't get to play a "main" his ass should be forced to play every God damn job in this game. Every class on his account should be lv99 as if he ain't having fun then chances are most aren't.

[KurohNeko]

Job identity loss in FFXIV IMO is a result of the game pretty much abandoning the RPG part of MMORPG.

Generally in RPGs all enemies aren't made equal. Enemy types would have different elemental weaknesses/resistances/immunities/absorption. Different resistances to physical damage whether it was all physical damage or just specific types like piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, etc... This at its core would make certain characters/classes/builds excel against some things but fall behind against others. RPGs would also promote horizontal progression options via gear in the form of set bonuses, added effects, skill bonuses, skill augmentations, etc...

FFXIV has gone the route of removing all build diversity and replacing it powercreep making raw stat numbers bigger while trying to make it so every job within a role type has the same tool kit.

And the answer for that is the root of all evil, casuals. People who are too normie NPC's to choose something based on playstyle and to learn God damn mechanics and what their jobs strengths and weaknesses are and not pick a job solely because they like the aesthetic. When jobs just become cosmetics people pick based on their favorite looking weapon you have failed. MH does this better, each job has such a unique playstyle that the game changes based on what you play as.

[hagare]

And the answer for that is the root of all evil, casuals. People who are too normie NPC's to choose something based on playstyle and to learn God damn mechanics and what their jobs strengths and weaknesses are and not pick a job solely because they like the aesthetic. When jobs just become cosmetics people pick based on their favorite looking weapon you have failed. MH does this better, each job has such a unique playstyle that the game changes based on what you play as.

at least until you hit a savage where all PF says no Casters because they suck in this fight *shrug*

[Levirre]

Job identity loss in FFXIV IMO is a result of the game pretty much abandoning the RPG part of MMORPG.

Generally in RPGs all enemies aren't made equal. Enemy types would have different elemental weaknesses/resistances/immunities/absorption. Different resistances to physical damage whether it was all physical damage or just specific types like piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, etc... This at its core would make certain characters/classes/builds excel against some things but fall behind against others. RPGs would also promote horizontal progression options via gear in the form of set bonuses, added effects, skill bonuses, skill augmentations, etc...

FFXIV has gone the route of removing all build diversity and replacing it powercreep making raw stat numbers bigger while trying to make it so every job within a role type has the same tool kit.

I think they could have used Bozja as a testing ground and played around with introducing Lost Actions into main pve content (Not considering the balance needed for this like grinding for those lost actions). Coming from BLU, collecting skills with friends was really fun. Lost Actions could have been a doorway to more varied encounter design closer mimicking JRPG mechanic interaction with how BLU missions are set up. Low stakes normal content like dungeons could have been a great way to introduce using them to offer more wacky mechanics than just 2 mobs and a boss that does a slightly different venn diagram. On a side note it also sucks that they stopped using the Duty Button and just made everything a keyboard mash for transitions because it was fun using it in stuff like Lakshmi and the Ivalice raids.

[Larirawiel]

I swear, I've never seen a game with such an extreme amount of homogenization. Literally every job plays the same and is based on the same core mechanics. Every raid/dungeon is cookie-cutter design from previous raids. New content isn't even new anymore because you've played it in a different skin before.

The game design has completely gone down the drain. There's no uniqueness. Everything IS the same, and everything PLAYS the same.

Because it is what most players demand.


Cheers