The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

**DPZ2** · 06-02-2022 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Additionally, Ishikawa wrote the NieR crossover in which it's said Emet's "paradise" was Azem & Hyth

Exactly where do you get this information?

I have been unable to locate any reference that states Ishikawa "wrote" anything in YorHA: Dark Apocoalypse. Be specific as you can, as you've made this assertion twice in this thread.

**Absimiliard** · 06-02-2022 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Exactly where do you get this information?

I have been unable to locate any reference that states Ishikawa "wrote" anything in YorHA: Dark Apocoalypse. Be specific as you can, as you've made this assertion twice in this thread.

Uhhhh. A quick google search immediately pulls up multiple credible sources. Incidentally, you're kinda missing the plot here. The crossover stuff they're referencing is what was put in the NieR mobile game, not the raids in ShB. It contains some rather important information as relates to Emet-Selch and the unsundered world as a whole (as well as the fallout from the sundering).

**Rulakir** · 06-02-2022 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Avidria

What is interesting here actually is that what you describe is essentially what G'raha did, but I've seen him decried for it more than once on these forums (not necessarily by you, but in general). He effectively sacrificed a dying world to save a "better" one, where his hero and friends are still alive, and get a second chance.

It's thematically inconsistent. The 8UC is basically a complete "bad end" for Venat right down to people again trying to return to the past over going forward in the future (and by his very nature G'raha is the biggest thematic walking contradiction in the entire universe). This is why people have a problem with it. I've seen EW referred to as "Rules for Thee, But Not for Me": the expansion and I can't say I disagree.

WoL would need to make the same choice to save the Ancients, only they'd be doing it knowing all of their friends are actually still alive and do actually have a chance to be saved, and they'd be trading that for a bunch of people they don't know closely and likely can't fit in with anything close to easily because they're so vastly different in experience, worldview, and abilities. And also OG Azem is still alive back then, too.

Ordinarily, I would argue that saving the Ancients is the morally correct choice in that by doing so you prevent the omnicide of Etheirys, the obliteration of 8 shards including the 13th, the near complete annihilation of the First, and that's not including anything from the 8UC. Not to mention saving your original soul from being sundered. The WoL's life for all of that seems a small price to pay (one life for multiple worlds). The problem is with how shoddily time travel is handled within FFXIV. There's either the paradox of the WoL has to return to the future to maintain an arbitrary time loop or that we now know creating a new timeline doesn't erase the previous one because I honestly don't care about people who don't exist yet and won't for 12k years over what I can do here and now to prevent multiple apocalypses.

I frankly don't know what was supposed to feel satisfying about this time loop. Sending me back in time to not be able to change anything, feel worse about Emet & Hyth's fates, and have Venat shoved up my backside wasn't worth it and was overall a detriment to the story.

Which is... not far off of what Venat is being decried for too. Making the choice to give up on one world for the sake of a maybe brighter future in a different one.

The issue is there was nothing wrong with Ancients' future when she chose to end it. The 8UC at least has the excuse that after 200 years the people working on making the CT a time traveling machine still felt that the Source was beyond hope of salvation to the point they were willing to erase their existence. The Ancient world was in the process of healing and restoration after an extinction level event and Venat decided that seemed like a good time to strike to make sure that they don't potentially end up like The Plenty, while making the Source (and it's shards) more susceptible to numerous other doomed world fates. This is something that's never addressed, that in avoiding one fate (that was not guaranteed) she put the world at risk of a myriad of others.

Even the 8UC was a group effort. Everything we're shown is Venat never told anyone anything. (I don't care she said she would in Elpis, all evidence suggests she never actually did.) This was exclusively the decision of one individual in the midst of a crisis of faith.

Originally Posted by Slatersev

People keep comparing the worlds or morality of the two groups without bothering to acknowledge that the state of the Shards has been fucked with by Ascians sense the start. We have quite literally no idea what the Shards or Sundered would be like in a world where they were left alone because the Ascians were actively making things worse for everybody the whole time.

Yes, we do. Those dastardly Ascians didn't have their fingers in every pie. The sundered are quite willing and able to corrupt themselves on their own without assistance.

**Rokke** · 06-02-2022 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Exactly where do you get this information?

I have been unable to locate any reference that states Ishikawa "wrote" anything in YorHA: Dark Apocoalypse. Be specific as you can, as you've made this assertion twice in this thread

You cant find anything because you're looking up the wrong Nier game. The phone game is called NieR Reincarnation, and its recent XIV collab was written by Ishikawa.

**Lauront** · 06-02-2022 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yes, we do. Those dastardly Ascians didn't have their fingers in every pie. The sundered are quite willing and able to corrupt themselves on their own without assistance.

Besides, wouldn't want the world going the way of the dreaded Plenty, now would we?

**Slatersev** · 06-02-2022 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by redheadturk

Sundered were good at making it Hell all on their own, they didn't need the Ascians' help with that. Sex trade, murders, land grabs, just to name a few. Oh, and the Dragonsong war is something the Ascians had no hand in as well. Yeah, Sundered man are idiots all on their lonesome, no help needed.

Saying they made it there own hell when literally every major problem with the Sundered world at this point can be traced directly back to Ascian fuckery is laughable. Shadowbringers went out of its way to establish them as the source of everything. Allag, Garlemald, the Void, the Sineaters

The simple fact there responsible for every calamity means they bear some responsibility for everything that came out of them. Because every single one knocked the world back, destroyed the nations and forced resettlement and rebuilds.

If Venat bears responsibility for the bad things that happened as a result of her actions, and she totally does, the Ascians deliberately destroying global civilization over half a dozen times means they also do because something like that isn't isolated, its aftershocks go on for millenia.

Put it this way, Ishgard would never even have existed if multiple calamities hadn't happened. Sharleyn wouldn't either. Nor any other nation thats active now or has ever been active after a Calamity.

And I'm not calling the Ancients "dastardly" or some other tripe. I am saying that there societies cant be judged on a head to head because its a flawed premise in which we see Unsundered society at its peak free of any outside interference. Something which has never been true for the Sundered.

We have zero idea what a Sundered Source that never had to deal with Ascian interference would look like, especially after 12k years left alone.

Of course we can say "Oh they still would have done bad things" but that's conjure and the sundered and also Venat bearing responsibility for there own sins doesn't erase the Ascians purposeful involvement dating back from the beginning.

**Tsumdere** · 06-02-2022 10:08 AM

The greatest mistake they made in EW was not showing that Venat had fought and begged for the Ancients to fight Meteion before the Final Days got as bad as we saw in the cutscene. They implied she did as much in Anamnesis Anyder andthat she had a following of Ancients that did believe her and support her, but never explicitly showed it which makes her seem selfish, impulsive, and cruel.

As I saw it - it was the choice between complete death of everyone and everything forever, or the death of those alive but the continuation of life in general. The Ancients deserved better. Venat made a choice with both good and bad outcomes. It's tragic all around.

As for time loops/time travel... they don't really work in practically anything and always introduce plot holes and inconsistencies. I hope they are put down for good. Best you can do is take time travel shenanigans at face value and not think too hard about it.

**Jojoya** · 06-02-2022 11:15 AM