Would Endwalker have been better if we never visited Elpis at all?

[grinkdaboy]

oh yeah and another thing

elpis takes away from the whole idea of being just a random lowly adventurer who rises to the occasion because of timetravel bs. in order for the plot to work (ie venat to trust us) we need her traveler's charm, and we get the traveller's charm in the arr intro sequence. it re-contextualizes everything in a bad way

[Xeronia]

Very well, if it's canon and I missed out on some pertinent information that should have been in the game, I'll concede I was wrong. However, going on the information provided in the game's narrative itself, which is what most will use to discuss the narrative; and not some worthless crossover that most aren't going to even recognize the existence of after the poor reception of Dark Apocalypse, you cannot fault me for still having held the same opinion and understanding that the game had presented—in a voiced scene no less— during Shadowbringers' main narrative.

I will argue, however, that is is a blatant retcon that spits in the face of and contradicts the narrative of Shadowbringers.
Which is just... lovely... I'm glad this arc is over, to hells with it and its yo-yoing continuity that they feel can be altered ad nauseum every time a new detail is "revealed."

I still will never see Venat as a villain, nor the ancients or convocation—they were humans prioritizing survival over all else. You cannot fault them for that.
I will, however, fault the inconsistencies between the narrative presented in game and a canon crossover in a game so removed from the narrative that it's almost insulting.

Was it not clear enough in Eden with Gaia not being a thing like Lohgrif? I never even heard info of the cross over and assumed sundered people turned out different from the person they were sundered from based on that.

[Kolsykol]

We went there to answer a question. So long as we find the answer to that question elsewhere I see no reason why we would have to go there. Yes I think it would have been better if we just visited ruins or something.

I don't think that would've been nearly as fun and exciting, and ultimately it's a video game that needs to be taken into consideration too.
I generally don't like time travel stuff but I had more problems with the Crystal Exarch and Crystal Tower or the insanity of the Alexander raid than I did Elpis.

My preference tho would've been that we had somehow used our connection to Azem to sorta enter her/ his memories in a sort of physical way ( for gameplay purposes ) and it could've played out the same.
Meteion could still feel a connection to us because of Azem the same way that Hythlodaeus opened up so easily he even said it himself that it was probably because of our soul.

Ultimately tho I really wonder if people are as critical of time travel in other movies or games, or motives and methods of other villains like Thanos or uh... Emet.
Like do people even actually think it was poorly executed or do they just hate time travel?
Because there is a difference...

oh yeah and another thing

elpis takes away from the whole idea of being just a random lowly adventurer who rises to the occasion because of timetravel bs. in order for the plot to work (ie venat to trust us) we need her traveler's charm, and we get the traveller's charm in the arr intro sequence. it re-contextualizes everything in a bad way

............
This hasn't been a thing since basically early ARR o_O...
I dunno why when we got the blessing matters at all there.

Also the story was never planned out from the very beginning which is something worth remembering.
I mean it was really SHB that went in and rly started to connect things.
There are going to be holes or some retcons...

[Aniya_Estlihn]

Was it not clear enough in Eden with Gaia not being a thing like Lohgrif? I never even heard info of the cross over and assumed sundered people turned out different from the person they were sundered from based on that.

Gaia would be many rebirths into Logrhiff's sundered life, so that's not clear because it was not related to my point in the slightest. We were referring to the immediate results of the sundering, ground zero, the day of. Which in the past seemed a lot more tame than the NieR crossover makes it.

But I am done with this discussion. This arc is over and with it my interest has fled. I can now only hope the coming arc retains the same interest, tempo and enjoyment that I got out of 6.1.

[Xirean]

I don't think that would've been nearly as fun and exciting, and ultimately it's a video game that needs to be taken into consideration too.
I generally don't like time travel stuff but I had more problems with the Crystal Exarch and Crystal Tower or the insanity of the Alexander raid than I did Elpis.

My preference tho would've been that we had somehow used our connection to Azem to sorta enter her/ his memories in a sort of physical way ( for gameplay purposes ) and it could've played out the same.
Meteion could still feel a connection to us because of Azem the same way that Hythlodaeus opened up so easily he even said it himself that it was probably because of our soul.

Ultimately tho I really wonder if people are as critical of time travel in other movies or games, or motives and methods of other villains like Thanos or uh... Emet.
Like do people even actually think it was poorly executed or do they just hate time travel?
Because there is a difference...

I've actually suggested something like this in other threads. But I think Kuro put it very plainly that the issue is our ability to return there whenever. The reason I suggest ruins is for the possibility of a zone to explore that also allows for location based echo visions. Looking into someones memories and having the WoL take the place of that person in said visions would allow for the instanced duel with Venat and the dungeon to remain as well as any story cutscenes though they would need to be reworked. Having the WoL view events rather than experience them changes quite drastically the implications of what is going on with that moment of the story. I've said it before; don't let me shake hands with a memory and not expect me to try to change things.

[KurohNeko]

If the entirety of the storyline surrounding Venat and the events of Elpis had not been in-game, would the story seem better to you? Or was it essential for the successful conclusion of 6.0, despite the dislike of that storyline for a number of forum posters?

Elipis, and the time-travel was one of the best parts of the story from showing how the ancients lived and making them more human, showing Emet pre villain arc. Having a reunion with Hythlodaeus. Meeting Hermes and Meteion and Venat and getting both the answer as to how the world was sundered and why Hydaelyn acted the way she did. As for the dislike from other posters, most of it boils down to a lack of literary understanding or philosophical.

[KurohNeko]

I think that it would have made for a better story if the game did not decide to weirdly attempt to justify the genocide of the Ancients. Whether that meant going to Elpis or not.

Endwalker fell apart in the eyes of many, I suspect, because of the inconsistent morality and 'themes'. The game loves to force the antagonists to be sympathetic and placed in impossible to comprehend bleak circumstances only to treat them as a nuisance for daring to stand up and do everything possible to in order to preserve and protect their loved ones. It's fair for the protagonists to seek to do the same thing, of course, though the story has become plagued with situations where the protagonists will do the exact same thing they accuse the antagonists of doing yet it's conveniently brushed under the rug.

I'd disagree. Entire point of Endwalker and the latter half of Shadowbringers was that Emet and Elidibus and their actions were understandable and not wrong. They simply weren't the best actions. More like a neutral route. The only reason the protagonist and gang were able to rise above what they could achieve is due to the sundering and calamites both weakening humanity making it vulnerable and mortal and forcing it to learn to crawl and then walk when it used to always fly. Thus allowing it to both become stronger than the ancients ever could be as well as look at things from another perspective. The protagonist didn't seek to do the same thing as Emet or the ancients. He sought to go above and beyond. Same with the rest of the gang.

[KurohNeko]

Well, I loved EW as it is, warts and all.

My biggest issues with Elpis were that I generally dislike time travel in all of my fiction, and I disliked the way information was presented. Not sure if I'm saying the latter right. But basically, during the cutscene where the WoL finally tells Hermes everything, he thinks about it for a moment, then tells everyone exactly what's really going on. Even using words like "we Ancients..." when addressing the group, which I thought was weird. To them, they aren't Ancients at all. They are the modern day. But that might be nitpicking.

However, later, when we return back to our present, the information we relay to the Scions is greeted with sort of a shrug. Like, "Ah, so it is dynamis that causes the Final Days. As we suspected. Thanks for confirming this!"

I would think us telling them that we actually traveled back in time to the World Unsundered and met Emet-Selch and freaking Hydaelyn before she was Hydaelyn, hung out with them and a bunch of other Ancients for a time - including Fandaniel before he was Fandaniel - then befriended the eventual Avatar of Despair that threatens to wipe out the entire universe, who was created by Hermes to travel the cosmos, giving us unprecedented insight into an Ancient's psyche would be a game-changing moment for everyone.

I feel like everyone should have just been standing there in stunned silence. "By the Twelve! You...you...met Venat? You saw Etheirys as it was before the sundering?" And then Y'shtola would say something like, "I trust your time in the ancient past was well spent. Tell us all you have learned about Fandaniel."

But instead it was just sort of received nonchalantly and then they moved on.

Which is why I don't like time travel.������

That's a fair critic. I don't think the time travel itself failed simply how everyone took it

[KurohNeko]

Based on what I've read on the forums, I would say the majority of people here didn't pay attention to the entirety of the story.

Ditto

10 characters and all that

[KurohNeko]

oh yeah and another thing

elpis takes away from the whole idea of being just a random lowly adventurer who rises to the occasion because of timetravel bs. in order for the plot to work (ie venat to trust us) we need her traveler's charm, and we get the traveller's charm in the arr intro sequence. it re-contextualizes everything in a bad way

Yes, it basically means we are the anchor holding the timeline together and every action we ever did lead up to the time-loop meaning we are the chosen ones beyond the already thick plot armor.