Is the WoL actually good though?

[KizuyaKatogami]

If your main argument that the WoL isn't a good person is that they stood against the people trying to kill them, then you don't actually have an argument.

If someone comes up to you and goes 'I have an internally consistent reason why it's morally correct to murder you and your loved ones', and your response is 'I would prefer to not be murdered', you are not a bad person for that even if that person who wants to murder you doesn't like it.

Did anyone here even say it’s wrong for the WoL to defend themselves if someone’s trying to murder them? I haven’t seen anyone state that at least.

[EaraGrace]

As with all of these conversations it wholly depends on your moral and ethical framework. Without that we have nothing to judge the WoL on. Even less if you’re trying to assign the WoL some specific motivation or intent. Case in point, one persons’ character saved the Sultana because of the pay. Another did so because she was the best hope for reforming Ul’Dahn society. A completely different WoL saved her because saving a helpless stranger is what a virtuous person would do. The fact that all of them can be correct and incorrect at the same time should highlight the problem here I think.

[Cleretic]

As with all of these conversations it wholly depends on your moral and ethical framework. Without that we have nothing to judge the WoL on. Even less if you’re trying to assign the WoL some specific motivation or intent. Case in point, one persons’ character saved the Sultana because of the pay. Another did so because she was the best hope for reforming Ul’Dahn society. A completely different WoL saved her because saving a helpless stranger is what a virtuous person would do. The fact that all of them can be correct and incorrect at the same time should highlight the problem here I think.

Yeah, it's not really possible to declare someone objectively morally right or wrong. You kinda have to pick a moral framework and apply it. That said, I feel like the only moral frameworks that wouldn't call the WoL a good person are the ones that don't really judge on metrics like 'good' and 'bad'.

Putting aside the situations where the WoL doesn't really provide any input because they want the character to be a blank slate in many ways, or just because there wouldn't be a point, the character comes across as, broadly, a kind person that doesn't ask for compensation. Even consider Fray at their worst as essentially one of the only direct windows into the WoL's psyche that we've got; Fray gets mad that someone is ungrateful, but they still helped. In fact, Fray only actually got outwardly mad at someone when they actively objected to the aid they were already given. Sure, you can write in 'actually my WoL fleeced people for all they're worth every time they could', and there's technically nobody who can say they didn't, but when we do get a window into the WoL's psyche largely through dialog choices, we see someone who's always willing to help and do good, albeit maybe not necessarily someone who's happy to, and will occasionally get... weirdly spicy with people despite helping. Mostly that happened in Stormblood, and I don't know why.

In fact, I'd say the WoL is kind even beyond my own capacity to accept that about them, because there's some people they're kind about to a weird degree. The WoL is a person who will even give respect to Yotsuyu and Emet-Selch, and both of them were war criminals who tried to murder them. To a degree I can recognize that the WoL is a more forgiving and kind-hearted person than I am, but I worry about someone who can look past that.

And also, just as importantly for an ongoing story... I don't think we will ever see any story where the WoL isn't ultimately a good and kind person. Even in a game where the writers no longer want to write a straight 'heroes against villains' story, the WoL will always be a fundamentally good person, who at the end of the day is fighting for a better world. That's not even an FFXIV thing, that's an FF thing overall; every single FF protagonist is a good person. Even if they were jerks about it in the late 90's for some reason.

EDIT: Also, on a game design perspective, every MMO player character that isn't explicitly a villain is ultimately a good and helpful person, it helps with the game design. All of our characters are helpful busybodies, because only a helpful busybody would do all these goddamn quests.

[Lyth]

'I wanted this, once. More than anything. A chance to speak and be heard. But neither of us needs it anymore. And if we were to look deep within ourselves, we would realize that we never did.

We are the stories we tell ourselves. The brave hero, the tortured soul, the altruist, the pragmatist. They will tell you who they see, but you and you alone know who you are. For I speak only for myself. If you find comfort in my words, they are yours for the taking, but that is your choice. Now and ever after, as it has always been.

Now comes your part, to cloak yourself in the fiction, to breathe life into the dead, to give a voice to the voiceless... As we did together that day, when you gave us our answer.

Was it ever mine...?'

...

/thread

[SentioftheHoukai]

I'd say if anything the WoL is consistently rather selfish, it's just more difficult to tell because usually that selfishness comes in the form of protecting their loved ones which is often tied to an overall greater plot such as fighting for the nation of Ishgard even though in a dialog option Thancred says you've ever fought for friends, not nations.

The WoL is also, for better or worse, easily influenced by the people they love. The Scions, in particular, if they say jump the WoL asks how high. This makes anyone opposed to the Scions automatically on bad footing with the WoL, who is often depicted as extremely closed-minded towards anyone who's even remotely associated with a conflict in the past.

As someone else mentioned, the DRK quests further emphasize the WoL is just outright tired of being a "slave" to having to help others. Later, they address the WoL wondering whether or not they've always done the right thing, which is frankly something I wish they'd address more in the MSQ.

What you've said about the DRK questline highlights my issues with it. It feels like a red herring that they gave us merely to inject a sense of moral relativity to our WoL but when you take into account the fact that it rarely seems to affect the MSQ it comes across as superficial. If the DRK WoL truly felt like a slave to duty and thinks on occasion they should've "left Limsa Lominsa to Leviathan" then they likely would have done so. Bottom line is Square needs to chill with the forced characterization of the WoL, it ceases to be a roleplaying game when you're forced into such narrow field of what you can and can't be.

[Absimiliard]

I feel there's plenty of room for the WoL to be a somewhat awful person - or, if nothing else, extremely tired of everything they have to deal with. Sure, outcomes don't change, but we are given plenty of dialog options that show them to either be 110% done with everyone's crap, out for blood, or just generally not caring about whoever/whatever came to beg for their help this time around. Oft times the smarmy responses are warranted, but more than a few seem to come completely out of the blue. These options have definitely gotten more common with each successive expansion.

[Lyth]

The Dark Knight questline wasn't really about moral relativism. It was about being true to yourself and living with the weight of your decisions. Roleplaying isn't quite the same as story-writing and directing. An actor might not get to choose their part, but they can certainly find ways to personally express themselves through it, if they're imaginative enough.

Also, why can't this game be more like Tetris.

[Cleretic]

The Dark Knight questline wasn't really about moral relativism. It was about being true to yourself and living with the weight of your decisions. Roleplaying isn't quite the same as story-writing and directing. An actor might not get to choose their part, but they can certainly find ways to personally express themselves through it, if they're imaginative enough.

Also, why can't this game be more like Tetris.

Yeeeeah, here's the eternal thing bout Dark Knight: for all Fray says, they never take the option not to help. They rant about it a bit, they talk about how easy it could be to walk away, but they never do. Because the core belief of Dark Knight, from top to bottom, is to do what's right even if it sucks.
The original Dark Knights of Ishgard did what they knew was the right thing to do even in the face of an oppressive theocracy saying otherwise.
Sidurgu's journey is to learn that the easy catharsis of revenge is folly, that he needs to truly care and that let those sometimes painful feelings be his guide.
And the WoL themselves, who was already doing what's right, perhaps gets the most pointed lesson of them all: that no matter how thankless the road is, no matter how much it stretches you or how much it makes you want to scream, that doing the right thing is the right thing to do.

Dark Knight holds no moral relativism, but it does have false choices. Because its entire purpose is to tell you that, no matter what, the Warrior of Light will always help. That's why Dark Knight was the perfect promo job for Shadowbringers: because in a journey where their life was at the greatest risk it's ever been if they dared to fight, they still fought.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The thing with the WoL is i feel there’s plenty of times where fighting isn’t necessary and they still choose to. In a way it makes them seem a bit similar to Zenos in the end and i believe this is even reflected upon by him. It’s almost as if we choose to fight fight fight instead of possibly talking things out. Obviously it’s an mmo so we can’t really have any agency whatsoever(even though other mmos do it but i digress) but it still rubs me off the wrong way. I mean…now with reaper we’re basically consuming peoples souls lol. And i guess that’s just okay.

[Ransu]

At the start of ARR you were just an ordinary adventurer so those answers make complete sense.