The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[Saraide]

For 12k years she could not put a scratch on a sundered Zodiark... 8 sundered and the scions defeat her... she doesn't seem to have been all she was cracked up to be, tbh.

We had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold. Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud.

Yeah no. The issue with your take is Venat knew, she had the relevant information that could have allowed her people to combat Meteion's little tantrum. She refused to share it and instead unilaterally made the decision that "Mommy knows best" instead of sharing it with them so they could come up with a solution on their own. And I have full faith they *could* have.

My issue with this is that the the game fails to to set up that the ancients couldn't have dealt with Endsinger once they were able to turn there attention to the issue. Also if Venat complete scours all of there culture and legacy from existence which is vile act.

I think the game does set that up. Given the knowledge there is no reason to assume hermes wouldnt just side with meteion again and with the loyalty of the best mind they have on dynamis most likely against them while also not being able to directly influence it, it would have spelled disaster. Venat only had one shot, she had to decide which one to pursue then and there. It absolutely was a vile act, she recognizes that. She did it out of desperation to end the spiraling despair that took hold of the ancients' society.

[gotaname1]

snip

Weren't the ancients capable of time manipulation? They would have had vast amounts of time figuring something out using time chambers outside of the fact that twitter had litterally only just left the planet. But I suppose the writers could not make the story 'good' if the characters in it were capable of logic xD

[Absimiliard]

Weren't the ancients capable of time manipulation? They would have had vast amounts of time figuring something out using time chambers outside of the fact that twitter had litterally only just left the planet. But I suppose the writers could not make the story 'good' if the characters in it were capable of logic xD

It's one of very few things they couldn't do that well.

[Saraide]

Weren't the ancients capable of time manipulation? They would have had vast amounts of time figuring something out using time chambers outside of the fact that twitter had litterally only just left the planet. But I suppose the writers could not make the story 'good' if the characters in it were capable of logic xD

Utopias never hold up under scrutiny. This is an extremely well explored concept. Holding everyone in a single moment in time is functionally not different from oblivion and also, as we've learned from alexander, takes insane amounts of aether to sustain. Which is the same problem zodiark has, it's not sustainable to just shield the planet from the song of oblivion because it will increase in strength, while zodiark's shroud does not.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Utopias never hold up under scrutiny. This is an extremely well explored concept. Holding everyone in a single moment in time is functionally not different from oblivion and also, as we've learned from alexander, takes insane amounts of aether to sustain. Which is the same problem zodiark has, it's not sustainable to just shield the planet from the song of oblivion because it will increase in strength, while zodiark's shroud does not.

While I'm glad you brought up such an original concept, the Elpis arc takes extra special care to demonstrate just how little the Ancient's society truly resembles utopia. While my purpose in posting this thread is for my own benefit, others have pointed out and provided ample evidence as to how and why Venat did not need to destroy her people's entire way of life (and indeed, their very bodies, souls and culture) to solve the dilemma of Meteion and the Final Days. Though I don't doubt that this is the outcome the WoL would have preferred, seeing as how their loved ones exist in a timeline that ultimately persists at the expense of everything that came before. As for me, my sole unshakeable belief is that their loss is a tragedy. One I've yet to get over. Time will tell if I'll be strong enough to "Forge Ahead", though by Venat's philosophy if I fail to overcome the depression Endwalker's given me I deserve to die and have my soul expunged.

[jameseoakes]

We had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold. Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud.

We know they can make things that can interact with dynamis and that they have at least 12000 years to work on the problem, it seems very easy to deal with her as she was a complete pushover as we defeated her with almost no effort or cost.

[ZeraSkiratea]

Zodiark and Hydaelyn adhere to a different set of rules than modern primals. Zodiark, with the wealth of Ancient souls within him, had a virtually infinite wellspring of aether from which to draw. Hydaelyn, though functionally similar, had far fewer souls and thus drained all of them to non-existence. She continued to exist even without the extra souls/aether right up until she depleted her own soul in battle with the WoL and Scions.

while that IS true, iirc it is said, or at least implied that booth did Syphon some aether from the Aetherical sea (altough unwillingly iirc in Hydaelyns case and Zodiark was.. ya know, not really in a position do it conciousl yeither) which formed the Mother(and father) crystal.
Now, given Hydaelin never used it, there are 4 possible reassons as to why she never used it.
She either A) couldnt, as it was maybe "incompatible aether" for whatever unexplained reasson,

or B)She knew she couldnt use it as it was required for us to travel to ultima thule
or C)She didnt yet HAVE to use it to sustain herself(as in, she still had a bit of aether over till she would have started to burn herself making the final test no longer fair)
or D)She didnt want to use it and potentialy permamently drain Etheris of some part of Aether


now, A and B are the most likely

[ZeraSkiratea]

We know they can make things that can interact with dynamis and that they have at least 12000 years to work on the problem, it seems very easy to deal with her as she was a complete pushover as we defeated her with almost no effort or cost.

I wouldnt call what we did "with no effort or cost", the fight, in gameplay, was rather simple, i admit but Gameplay=/=lore or te actual difficulty in universe

it required vast ammounts of Aether, a spaceship, and the tracking spell of Venat to even reach her, she effortlessly managed to drain the atmosphere from the entire region(at least thats what i think it was) requiring someone to litteraly turn themself into it by sheer willpower(dyanmis) and so forth.


HECK, even the very final battle was only won because of Dynamis powering us up with the hopes and prayers of the scions, and in turn, basically the entire Star.


Also, let get this straight, Endsinger, a being comprised of hundreds if not THOUSANDS of Meteis (whats the plural again?), a being specificaly designed to interact with dynamis, craeted by one of the greatest minds of the Ancients, and their foremost researcher in dynamis itself, lost to 8 People(or 1 depending on how we interpret the final fight)


Its not just about laerning to manipulate dynamis(or well creating a being to do it) its also about being able to overcome despair on your own, to turn it into strength.
The Ancients proved they are incapable of doing that,(which was the straw that caused venat to entrust the world unto tomorow, unto us) they went ahead and tried to return to a world before despair, instead of looking forward and getting stronger from it.
The beings they would create would need to be aethericaly weak enough to engage with dynamis, and overcome despair to strenghten their resolve before facing meteion.

How, tell me, does a species who is incapable of engaging with it themself, and who proved to be incapable of drawing strength from despair and overcoming it themself. Create a being(or multiple) that can do booth, the first part? sure, Meteion exists, they have a starting point, the second part, THATS what i doubt they would be able to acomplish.... or if they could it would require them to subject the beings to some sort of torture so they can experience despair, and overcome it, just to make them fight for them. And that didnt yet solve the problem of even GETTING to ultima thule



Now Venats response IS technicaly that "proposed idea", She sunderd everything, creating beings aethericaly weak enough to engage with Dynamis, and also caused them countless lifetimes worth of suffering and despair, of Tragedy and loos, just so we could fight, and this is twisted.

HOWEVER the tragedys themself where always of our own making(ignoring the ascian machinations, which she did try to help against), and it wasnt for the ancients sake, but for our own sake in the end.
Well anyway