What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Akiudo]

to be fair, it WAS the continuation of past storylines. i mean i kinda get what you mean, but i fail to see why that is a problem. "it only works as a continuation of an older storyline" would be a problem in a standalone title, but do to the way the game as a whole works theres basically no way for it to even happen as a standalone. like yes, if you just bought a story skip than i'll admit flatout that shb works a lot better than ew as an entry point, but should people that skip 3/4 of the overarching story be a high priority to keep in mind for how you finish it ?

endwalker surely had enough plot points that could have been fleshed out more, but on the other hand it's also incredibly easy to fall into the trap of dragging out things to long. say we had killed zodiark at 90, let zodiark rejoin completly before doing so while at it (dunno how, just say square makes it work somehow). you would than still be at the point of "why zodiark in the first place ?" and while you totally could spend another expansion on that question afterwards keeping this up for to long sends us where wow currently is with some gods beyond the gods beyong the other gods that...

the one big shortcoming i truly see is how abysmal venat tried to solve the whole situation, as the whole "oh, totally not gonna warn at least emet-selch/hythlodaeus/azem, lest hermes finds out and potentially goes against us" bit felt very forced, especially as we flat out told her how it played out because no one knew why the final days were happening and she sure as f.... wasn't gonna change that outcome acting completly alone while letting literally everyone else make the exact same moves as the first time.

[TyrAtatoskr]

i'd accept EW's lack of individual merit as a matter of course if heavensward and SHB weren't each prime examples of good standalone, yet continuous storytelling. the story and characters of the respective past expansions were paid off in a way that was well done and could not have happened without the past expansions, yet the core of the story was such that each could have been told as their own, fantastic, standalone FF story. including the pre-expansion storyline as well as the expansion proper, you didn't need to have foreknowledge of the intricate details of the source, the reflections, the calamities, or really even the ascians to fundamentally understand and enjoy the story that shadowbringers told. Stormblood required, to the point of boredom, an in-depth knowledge of the characters, their backstories, their motivations, their personal histories, the countries, the countries' histories, their borders, their individual trade agreements, the garlean empire, and how each of these things react to and change around the others. i could tell you about how the pirates of the ruby sea protected hirogane inadvertently due to their collective hate of the empire and their "protection fees," i could tell you about ala mhigo's relation as a barbarous city state, their relation to the other city states of eorzia, their salt exports due to their great lakes, and much more.

you know what i can't tell you about? i legitimately don't remember why the archbishop thordan chose to go to azyz lla of all places to become the primal king thordan, nor do I remember why they were at war with the ixal. but you know what? it was still a better story than stormblood. i'd much prefer to chase him across the dravanian forelands in order to meet y'shtola's mentor to figure out "when aether shield, build aether spear."

i guess I'll put it this way: with only very minor alterations, one could very easily understand and enjoy the plot of the last harry potter movie or The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, but i don't see that happening with EW. perhaps the place for this sort of continuous story is in patch content; SHB and HW each had their own .3 storylines heavily building off of the .0 storylines, and SB is basically the same, what with that masterful storyline leading up to the castrum fluminis trial (i forget whatsherface's name). I'm only speculating here, but it may have something to do with the amount of content that has passed since it was relevant, though i personally had a straight shot to EW's story, joining the game effectively just weeks before EW's launch.

[YukikoKurosawa]

you know what i can't tell you about? i legitimately don't remember why the archbishop thordan chose to go to azyz lla of all places to become the primal king thordan, nor do I remember why they were at war with the ixal. but you know what? it was still a better story than stormblood. i'd much prefer to chase him across the dravanian forelands in order to meet y'shtola's mentor to figure out "when aether shield, build aether spear."

IIRC it was to absorb the power of the warring triad to fuel his transformation but it's basically glossed over completely and never actually shown.

[jameseoakes]

Yeah, thats the issue isnt it, any suggestions for alternatives?

I don't really think they can fix it, with the true target of the sundering now being the the ancients themselves I don't think there is away to address it other than there current we don't want to deal with it approach. I don't think the writers wanted Venat to be a monster but then for almost no actual reason have her compleley exterminate her own people

[Lauront]

I was giving some thought to their desire to push this into a viable single player option (think what you will of that), and some thoughts cropped up in my mind as to what I think I'd need to see from them in terms of character (NPC) choice for this to work for me:

• Introduce breathing space for new characters - in terms of the total number of characters related to a specific scenario, only have say a certain proportion (say 1-2) of the characters be an established Scion in general, and where possible, allow for a choice of who, which fits with the scenario in question... I don't like these kind of quotas, but at the moment they're not giving nearly enough air time to newer chars, if any at all. They're all just side-characters, and it's a real pity, as some of the characters, like Erenville or Jullus, would make good companions... and this is meant to be a new story arc with the Scions 'retired'. Sure, they want to please existing fans, but to me this is stifling potential for new entrants. The ship has sailed for Scion deaths, but giving them a (long) break would be beneficial, especially if you come back to them later and they show growth. It'd also be good to try ensure to avoid making 1:1 replacements for the Scions, to avoid too much treading on toes. Maybe less of an issue where the Scion is genuinely being retired but still, it's a new character, so give them proper character building.
• Try aim for a variety of character backgrounds and perspectives - a Garlean or sundered Overlord companion, or someone like Fordola without their grit being eroded, would bring that. A sundered Overlord could at least pose an actual alternative viewpoint, bring in a less sanitised view of Venat/Hydaelyn and act in a role similar to Emet, in providing knowledge lost to the modern world - someone like Altima or Deudalaphon since we're a bit low on female characters who could join up outside the Scions. Gaia could've played this role but a bit late for that. Jullus could do something similar if we were to venture through former (?) Garlean provinces in Ilsabard, but so could Gaius. Jullus has some of that vim and vigour that Thancred used to have as a bonus.
• Make actual use of differing character perspectives and allow this to lead to occasional conflict - e.g. optionally allowing the WoL to pick a path and side with one or the other but in ways which don't alter the ultimate outcome... sometimes make it that following the advice of one or the other can have significant consequences where it concerns greater stakes as well, even if it isn't a matter of choice (other than in reactions.)
• Allow for characters with their own unique, and sometimes, opaque and personal agendas that don't necessarily align with "ours". I enjoyed characters like Edwin in Baldur's Gate 2. This game sorely lacks this sort of thing.

A personal desire of mine for a new addition, over and above what I already mentioned, would be for some kind of Auron-type auri male character, strong silent type with their own agenda to pursue, possibly linking to a future destination like Meracydia, since the Void looks like it'll be nearer-term material to me.

I think I'd just like anything to break the current monotony and hivemind the Scions have fallen into, as it's detrimental to my enjoyment of the story and the biggest gripe I had with 6.1, and why I am struggling to see myself enjoying this game going forward, even putting aside the huge dissatisfaction with 6.0's story plot - I was at least open to the new story in the hopes it'd improve things, but not so, at least so far. And as a contender for a single player? Sorry but there's many, many games which are built for that and therefore fulfil the role better. 14 would need to do a lot to compete. The only reason it can for me is it also has the MMO elements, but purely as a story, it's lacking in some of the aspects I'd look for in a single player RPG.

[Lauront]

*snip*

Doublepost but I just got to this and I don't want to make my other one longer.

I agree with what you're saying in the sense that they were cramping too much into one expansion - Ishikawa intimated she could even write for another two with the material she had, and based on the decision Yoshi made, it sounds like they had considered a Garlean expansion, and then the finale. So I think this didn't help. That's mostly on the pacing side of it, though, and even if the story had a bit more time to address its underlying elements, my dissatisfaction with them would still not alter the result.

Your first and second paragraphs touch on the meat of some of the stuff I loathed about it, the very nature of dynamis as feelz energy, and the sort of "conflicts" it invites, being one of those; I'm not the biggest fan of the "power of friendship" stuff but it's ok in small doses - this seemed like a literal deluge of it. The approach they took in trying to justify the Sundering just fell flat for me. In the Q&A post-EW, they clarified that a lot of this came down to Venat's beliefs and fears on where the ancients would end up. I've seen the interpretation of her character that she had a romanticised view of suffering (Brinne in this thread articulated it best), and I have to say, it's plausible to me that a romanticised view of the sundered world led to her only rhetorically aiming to do the best for mankind, which was less so her own flesh and blood people but some romanticised account of a "better" version of them based on this guy from the future who excited her - trouble is, she didn't get the full details and what she saw probably shocked her a bit, hence the apology.

They contrived reasons why she couldn't give her people a proper account of what happened, thus giving them in turn little reason to change. Coupled with the very shallow account of a broad swathe of other alien civilisations and a highly caricatured presentation of the Plenty, with the shallowest of visual parallels with the ancients, informing her "vision" of what may happen to them, felt very weak as reasons to end their civilisation. Almost like some bizarre "pre-crime" scenario, and she's basing this on a few lines from Meteion's report. And I've seen others making the point that the story involves a surrender to suffering as an idea, which I agree, it does paint it that way, even as we know the Scions will continue to strive for a "brighter tomorrow", that may one day lead to her supposed fears materialising anyway - guess they need to go too? The post-Elpis cutscene had little connection to what we know of the accounts of the division in their society from SHB materials; they also did nothing to show the sundering play out, relegating this instead to Nier crossover content for a mobile game... this was effectively a genocide of them as a people but the game glosses over that, in a way which it does not with the rejoinings.

I did not care for the attempts to push Hermes as the most "human" of the ancients, and a lot of his angst felt self-indulgent and just hit me as stupid, particularly when contextualised later with the Elpis sidequests, and also knowing what we did of the Amaurotines through the SHB sidequests and some other stuff. The attempts to try suggest to me that aspects of ancient society are 'scary', when far worse goes on in the sundered world, fell flat, and again, the sidequests neuter this. Even if this had succeeded in that portrayal, I still would not have found either of Hermes or Venat sympathetic in what they did to their people.

Had the story been clearer on the fact that the sundering was driven by Venat's beliefs, and not some weird sense that this "had" to happen to the ancients, when the plot points aren't nearly strong enough to support such a strong conclusion, I may have been a bit less dissatisfied with it. It only "has" to happen in the pragmatic sense that the status quo of the sundered world is here to stay; doesn't mean they have to try force a justification over it and then limit your narrative responses to this to positive ones. If I could at least have my character diverge from what she did in the words they addressed to her, I'd have been happier. Instead, we get Emet, who suffered a bloody 12k year toil as the result of her actions, throwing her compliments, and formerly sceptical Y'shtola brushing aside her apology to make something more positive of it... The fact that time travel and memory wipes are enjoined in this combined effort to justify it all, made it even more muddled and unsatisfying, especially as your character handed her the broad strokes of what would happen, and it also just led to them answering some big questions (like why were the 3 unsundered spared?) with "because you told her so". Whereas post-SHB they told us an AU formed for the 8UC timeline, here the gratuitous use of time travel doesn't even come with this offsetting benefit.

Add to all this the preachy tone of it, and constant invocation of the "Broken Aesop" trope (this is really something various expansions are guilty of, but none so much as EW), and it just left a very bitter taste in my mouth, which I'd hoped the new story would relieve me of somewhat.

So even if the story had been better paced, if they went with the exact same thing, I'd still be left dissatisfied. You may also find this post interesting on the whole topic of to what extent it's a good continuation. I thought this poster had some good ideas on how they could've structured the whole saga differently with the benefit of hindsight - there's some further posts commenting on it later down the page and after.

BTW I won't blame you (...much) if this is your response to the above:

[Lucida3b]

The fundamental flaw in Venat/the narrative the devs wanna push at times is obvious. Ancients arent fucking babies, Which is obvious in sidquests, PANDEMONIUM, and so on.

1. We plainly see in amaurot with a basic sidequest that most players will do for flight. The house of rhetoric raises strong points from a cynical perspective when talking about the merit of intervention in areas first affected by the final days.

2. They all recognize the danger of creation magic hence the general societal expectations on things like the masks they wear and some degree of conformity. Along with getting the concept vetted before used by others. The loporrobits are far more reckless it seems with creation magic

3. Hell even elpis recognizes the dangers in things like how in the research facility you are not allowed to wear a mask and hood due to it constricting your point of view which could result in a predator sneaking up on you, and based on typical human experiences that probably happened at first!

[Lauront]

True, and I had this problem as well with some other civilisations they depicted, like the Ea, who at times struck me as a goofy beast tribe. Even regarding the situation in Elpis, there was a sidequest stating a researcher in Anamnesis Anyder felt there was inadequate detail on its protocols for creations, particularly living ones. These weren't some naive, lamebrain imbeciles. They were a society structured around debate and long-term thinking, with lots of carefully thought out protocols and failsafes for what they did... except when the story requires you to think otherwise.

[Teraq]

2. They all recognize the danger of creation magic hence the general societal expectations on things like the masks they wear and some degree of conformity. Along with getting the concept vetted before used by others. The loporrobits are far more reckless it seems with creation magic

Never mind Emet balking at the idea of a mind-tampering machine when Kairos is first brought up (*). His subsequent mention of Pashtarot implies there are laws against this sort of things – and who knows what they had in store for Hermes at the end of the Ktisis events. Hermes himself certainly mentions he would no longer be a free man.

Combined with Themis casually discussing mind control spells in Pandaemonium, I am pretty sure Ancients have seen some shit back in their day, and their peaceful society doesn't seem like it was always such... or, at the very least, they were not naive at all to the potential of their powers and magicks.

Oh, but of course, then this means their society was not perfect enough to be longed for and brought back. But if it had been perfect, then they would have instantly transformed into these aliens from some distant planet and all killed themselves out of boredom, no doubt.

The moral of Endwalker is that the Ancients could never win, according to the writers. It's a tale of hope... but only if you're the right people!


(*) I still find it hilarious that the Kairos/Ktisis incident was seemingly never investigated by anyone. After all, it only implicated one of the most powerful and politically important people on the planet, and two other guys who weren't exactly nobodies either. No big deal!

[Lucida3b]

Also the fact aetherial corruption is a concept known by both venat and in some sidequests which in turn implies that they know of what that shit can do to someone.

Also I find the plenty funny, because i always get more 'decadent nobility' of something like the movie elysium living above the world while the rest of the world sucks then anything 'normal'. Cause if we take the plenty at it's word, there is only like a few dozen people above a damn shattered planetoid.