What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lucida3b]

TIL, but I doubt before the writers had gotten manipulative genocide denial from there, thats more just the fanbase creating a shield for it, something to worry about still but it should be noted they almost certainly know peoples issues, as they had to do backpedaling in a LL after all.

But on the topic of fanbase, sure this thread might be negativity but i find it quite good for me venting without getting piled on, its quite good for me mentally ngl

[Lauront]

TIL, but I doubt before the writers had gotten manipulative genocide denial from there, thats more just the fanbase creating a shield for it, something to worry about still but it should be noted they almost certainly know peoples issues, as they had to do backpedaling in a LL after all.

I agree, I don't think they got the specifics of the plot from there, but Reddit was rife with weird dystopian readings of ancient society that I don't think it can be argued really followed from the script itself, so much as eccentric interpretations of it, so whilst I still consider it stupid, I think that's where Yoshi came away with the viewpoint that the ancients could be framed as "scary". Secondly, the whole "Hydaelyn is going to be evil" theory (which I never thought was the proper way to handle it, as opposed to a Yunalesca approach) got traction on there, as did the notion that Zenos would skin-ride Zodiark (who totally was a blood god, forcing the Convocation to feed him souls etc), that Fandaniel would never be a real boss character etc. So from the vantage of "subverting expectations", those are probably the ones which the writers sought to "subvert", though I have to say I am glad the "blood god" nonsense was put to death. I don't think this excuses the writers in the slightest, as it is their piece of work and they shouldn't rely on expectation subversion purely for its own sake, plus Yoshi was fully cognisant of the fact that SHB's whole intention was to humanise aspects of the ancients; he should also have known that Elpis further added to this. So his takes remain very weird to me. Ishikawa seems to have better intuitions as to the expected reception. Nonetheless, whatever the weird defensiveness present on Reddit, it does seem to have penetrated the writers' consciousness that the story was confusing and, to some, outright strange, and that this may not have been what they intended to convey.

But on the topic of fanbase, sure this thread might be negativity but i find it quite good for me venting without getting piled on, its quite good for me mentally ngl

As much as people might rag on the forum, it is far more conducive to open discussion, IMO. You can't downvote people, discussions don't vanish in nested areas etc. I definitely appreciate it far more for discussions of this sort.

[anhaato]

This is probably useless nitpicking but I couldn't help but notice this expansion didn't have a cohesive visual theme or aesthetic like the previous ones. 1.0-ARR was kinda your typical modern mmo aesthetic with the varied lands in Eorzea all having semi-medieval or renaissance era looks as far as the architectural advancement, to be immediately contrasted with that of a highly technologically advanced empire trying to conquer them. The latter was very typical of the later FF games that came before it so no one was surprised, and it ended up working in the context of a whole magic vs technology battle going on.

HW was purely European high fantasy, except for Azys Lla, with all fire breathing dragons, Christian inspirations, the stone structures of Ishgard and Coerthas, magical floating islands with castle ruins, and the forested areas of Dravania that led to crumbling white marble buildings. Azys Lla was pretty out of place, but that was a visual high point in its own right, and it alone didn't disrupt the overall aesthetic.

SB was all about world cultures, between Ala Mhigo being based on Turkey and other parts of west Asia like the Levant and Caucasus regions, and then obviously east Asia (though Doma was pretty weird in how they couldn't seem to decide if they wanted it to be a second Japanalogue or China). The Steppe was basically 1:1 drawn from Mongolia. The music kept slapping you in the face with the typical sounds of traditional Asian stuff or loosely Arab-sounding tunes.

SHB was the return to high fantasy, this time with a bit less European influences but that was still definitely prevalent especially in Il Mheg, which is by far the most fantastical whimsical Grimm fairytale land we've been to between fantasized German architecture and mystical flora and fauna all over the place. Lakeland and Kholusia were both more grounded versions of western fantasy, but then we get to Rak'tika which is clearly Aztec/Mesoamerican in inspiration, while Amh Araeng is, surprisingly, more similar to western American deserts than I expected at first. And, of course, the zone that threw us all for a loop, the Tempest being undersea (dried up) with Amaurot in the horizon as a reference to Atlantis (fun fact it actually was originally going to be purely based on Atlantis and be fully underwater). Overall, lots of western fantasy inspo but a lot less prevalent than in HW, especially with the Crystarium being as technologically advanced as it is (comparatively), and... Eulmore.

Meanwhile, EW...? Let's see, we have neoclassical England (actually going there it doesn't feel all that Hellenic to me), a ridiculous underground bunker city in a similar style with a modern fighter jet down in the center??? Then we got... India. Just India. Then we have cyberpunk post-WW2 Russia in Garlemald. Then the moon having Amaurotine architecture, an Allagan spacecraft (AND THEY NEVER TALKED ABOUT THAT???), and a giant hotel with artificial vegetation. Elpis was visually impressive, definitely met my expectations for an unsundered zone, but was surprisingly Mediterranean in architecture. Makes sense because all the people are Greek but I don't quite get the connection to Amaurot which was art deco 1920s NYC gone Atlantean. And then... oof, Ultima Thule. This was hyped up at release but to me it's just such a visual mess that I can't take it seriously. The fragments of the stars were just ugly and had no cohesion. Then the center with the dead sun and the field of Elpis flowers with the spectral staircase leading up to it, stemming from a dark and dreary alien cafe. The backdrop was, in my opinion, a juvenile take on the whole galaxy space aesthetic. I just don't like it, I must say.

But the point is, none of the zones are aesthetically connected. Everything is telling a completely different story, much like the story itself. The random hodgepodge of a few worldly inspiration zones and a modern cyberpunk zone and space and the unsundered world just doesn't make sense visually. It really annoys me the more I think about it.

[Theodric]

I suppose it's simply a consequence of multiple expansions being squeezed into one. It'd feel a lot less jarring had each region been given the proper room to breathe. For as much as they claim to not have everything planned out, they mentioned that we would be going to the moon and Garlemald in earlier interviews.

I'm a fan of game worlds that are immersive and consistent. I wish the development team had more faith in their own product because I can't really figure out why they were so eager to shorten the story and move on to something different. It doesn't really respect their efforts so far and neither does it respect the investment of players who maybe care about more than the Scions who are forced upon us with greater frequency.

I think another issue is that multiple regions within the expansion were areas telegraphed far in advance but with so much competition for time in the spotlight we didn't really get much opportunity to truly dig deep. That can probably be mitigated during patch content assuming they can move away from slice of life scenes long enough to do as much. I'm also not sure why the secretive nation known to sent assassin squads out into the world and engage in shady experiments ended up being so...normal and inoffensive. I look at the earlier depictions of magically inclined nations within the game and then look at Y'shtola talking like a baby and sigh.

[anhaato]

The admission of Garlemald originally going to be the sole focus of 6.0 will never not mentally torment me. We could've had a compelling magic vs technology rehash between the Hindu and other near Eastern religious themes that inspired their own cultural form of fantasy in Ilsabard, against Garlemald proper which would've been the highest level of cyberpunk we'd ever get in this kind of setting. 7.0 being... everything else would've led to a more cohesive Grecian aesthetic across the zones.

The clear shift from trying to measure up to the tone of other western MMOs to going full anime nonsense between the new manga and the slice of life fluff cutscenes in the msq is really depressing. I blame everyone who said "well DUH of course you're gonna think it's weeb shit it's from JAPAN" my brother in Christ if I wanted to watch an anime girl talk cutesy I'd go watch Lucky Star or some shit, leave that out of my game about whole worlds facing potential destruction. And I say that as a weeb ass myself.

[Theodric]

Yeah, I'm not sure who they're trying to appeal to these days. It certainly doesn't feel like Endwalker was actually a love letter to people who have been playing from 1.0 or 2.0. There's so many abandoned or leftover plot points that I would love to have seen addressed or at least given proper closure.

There's points where I've felt embarrassed to be playing this game. I never felt that way back in ARR, HW or SB. It was creeping in a bit at times in ShB but became much more common as of EW.

Maybe it's a good thing that they had such stiff cutscenes in earlier expansions because if it was full of so much ear wriggling, strange faces and slapstick comedy then I'd not have bothered investing in the game.

Instead I'd like balance - and more genuinely creepy moments like Garlemald and Edda's downfall.

[anhaato]

I can't think of any nicer way to put this, they're appealing to softies, that's about it. The kind of player that reaches for the tissues during their msq reaction twitch stream whenever a slow piano track starts playing during a cutscene. They don't want their faves to die so a fake-out is good enough to get them screaming MOST COMPELLING STORY IN MMO HISTORY! And, naturally, they eat up any slice of life fluff cutscene or uncharacteristically cutesy behavior. Somehow they thought that this sort of consumer is now their largest demographic because they happen to be the loudest with their praise, when really most of the players just want a story that's, like, good. One that makes sense and is tonally consistent.

It also probably doesn't help that Ishikawa seems to personally enjoy it as well. She hyperfocuses on character interactions a lot. Good for side quests, good for fleshing out relationships between the main cast when necessary (and I felt it was very apt in SHB because we weren't a tightly knit group beforehand), but bad for when that's all been said and done and it's time to get to the conflict.

I realize this is condescending of me to say but I'm far too annoyed by it to care. All the prolific content creators who get clicks through their teary-eyed overreactions piss me off so hard these days, but that seems to be the kind of content SE wants to generate. Why else would they keep referencing Haurchefant to the point of every other dialogue option being ASBSAH and them designing an entire ultimate around an AO3 fix-it fic in which he survives?

[YukikoKurosawa]

When you look at this image, it will finally dawn upon you the reason behind many of the writing decisions in Endwalker and who they were trying to appeal to, why things felt, as Anhaato put it, twitch streamer reaction baity. When Yoshi said they had been "watching streamers" since mid 2021, they meant it.

[LisSquid]

They don't want their faves to die so a fake-out is good enough to get them screaming MOST COMPELLING STORY IN MMO HISTORY! A

I remember mostly everyone coming back from the finale of ARR, so I couldn't be phased at all by seeing characters die afterwards. I don't know how people who just started, with all of it fresh in their mind, found any of that worth the tension.

She hyperfocuses on character interactions a lot. Good for side quests, good for fleshing out relationships between the main cast when necessary (and I felt it was very apt in SHB because we weren't a tightly knit group beforehand), but bad for when that's all been said and done and it's time to get to the conflict.

This was my big issue. I just flat out cannot stand some characters. So when it's written in such a way that the very mood of the arc hinges on me giving a chocobo's ass about so-and-so I am so put off. G'raha isn't charming to me because I would rather he not be so informal to my WoL, my perception makes every interaction feel like he's humping my leg.

Sorry for quoting you so heavily, but I really don't know how else to contextualize my thoughts. ShB had moments that I thought were unique and shocking, but even the grand finale that made ShB this wonderful.. shade of gray situation? Naw, EW is here to make sure you know you were 100% the good guy and everything you did was 100% correct

[anhaato]

Alisaie: I think we should Defeat the Bad Guy, what do you think [Player Character First Name]?
You: I think a Smork Better Suits a Dork
MimiraMira69 on twitch.tv: Awwwwwwww how dare the writers do this to me! I am so emotional!