What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

Isn't Yoshi-P the one who forgot to include Krile in the promo art? If so, then wouldn't he also be responsible for who to include in the post-credit art? We saw from the Famitsu interview that he was 'surprised' people didn't take to Hermes the way they did to Emet. -_-

[jameseoakes]

Isn't Yoshi-P the one who forgot to include Krile in the promo art? If so, then wouldn't he also be responsible for who to include in the post-credit art? We saw from the Famitsu interview that he was 'surprised' people didn't take to Hermes the way they did to Emet. -_-

I am surprised they expected us to take to Hermes, they didn't really put much effort into making him actually that relatable or that engaging

[Theodric]

Hermes and Venat felt like little more than a desperate attempt to try and undo everything that Shadowbringers brought to the table in terms of nuance. I really don't understand what was so difficult about letting the Ancients, through no fault of their own, be subjected to a horrific tragedy. The weird attempts to try and gaslight, misdirect and justify their genocide is outright strange.

I'm also not sure how it is meant to be an uplifting story. There's a lot of things going on in the real world lately and no shortage of unhinged individuals who genuinely and gleefully believe that if someone thinks or holds a different opinion to themselves then they should be excluded from society at best and murdered at worst. With that in mind, portraying a figure who adopted such a mentality as a 'saviour' is pretty tone deaf and bizarre.

[PawPaw]

I am surprised they expected us to take to Hermes, they didn't really put much effort into making him actually that relatable or that engaging

I think it was only Comically-Out-Of-Touch Yoshida who expected us to find Hermes appealing and sympathetic. Even Ishikawa, who adores him, figured that 80% of the fanbase would hate him. And rightly so.

[anhaato]

Every so often I dream of a paradisiacal alternate reality in which the game boasted a 15 year storyline instead of 11 years...

1.0 through HW go on as they do now, 2010-2017 seven years of story. From 4.0 onward, I would personally change a lot. My full thoughts are spoiler marked to save everyone from the Great Wall of Text. Read if you want to know all of my rant, otherwise I make my point well enough with my abbreviated thoughts.

Abbreviated thoughts:
4.0 is solely Ala Mhigo, 5.0 is Doma, both get their own cities and their stories serve their purposes to establish foundations of what exactly the calamities/rejoinings were and exactly what the empire is.
Ghimlyt Dark serves as the gateway to 6.0, which is Garlemald. We get zones for Ghimlyt, Nhalmasque, an extra for Garlemald (split between the outer lands and the inner city, which takes up the entirety of a zone rather than being localized to a city), and an extra for Thavnair with Radz being the hub city, end hub somewhere in Garlemald. After helping put an end to their imperialist government by aiding internal resistance and starting a civil war, we defeat Elidibus (but don't worry he'll be back and get a proper conclusion to his story) which deactivates Zodiark and restarts the Final Days. Throw in as many FF7 references as possible.
7.0 we get SHB, level caps at 100 once and for all and the story is quite similar, with key differences being the final bosses of 7.0 (Eden) and 7.3 (Hades), as well as the lore that drops being heavier and the context being more stressful due to what's happening on the source.
8.0, at our "max power" of level 100, we put that strength to the test against the embodiment of despair, after saving the unsundered world from the final days and creating a new timeline. Elidibus returns to man Zodiark to aid us in the fight, and Hydaelyn is the final trial after our victory because we want to defeat her for her crime of sundering the world and inflicting suffering upon billions of people, as well as freeing ourselves from her tempering. Elidibus passes on, having completed his duty of saving the world and killing the one who destroyed it.
8.1 and beyond, adventure time woo lets get it!

Extended thoughts:

In 4.0 the devs break the established precedent of 2.0 and 3.0 by having the hub city only be fully accessible at the end of the story and instead putting the vendors temporarily in Rhalgr's Reach (even though no one would miss them let's be real. like let's be really real no one uses the vendors in major cities.). That city is, of course, Ala Mhigo proper. In fact, the whole expansion is solely Ala Mhigo focused. Instead of the 3 far east zones, we get an opportunity to throw in just a few more Eorzea zones, such as the home of the warriors in Abalathia's Spine, or maybe West Shroud or Coerthas Eastern. Exploring calamity-bombed zones would be a good way to add in some foundation to start talking about what the calamities actually are.

In 5.0, you guessed it, Doma's time to shine. Same case, city not accessible until the end. Kugane becomes the end hub. Yanxia gets 2 or 3 zones (Fanged Crescent, anyone?), with the opportunity to add in the Ryakgyr Peninsula, The Nhaama, and/or the Dalvalan Grath ("Why not Nagxia?" save that for a future expansion). The patch quests could actually continue quite similarly, with Tsukuyomi, The Burn, and Ghimlyt Dark. This time, though, instead of jebaiting us with the soulsnatching, Ghimlyt Dark functions as it SHOULD in that it acts as the gateway to the next expansion the way Baelsar's Wall did before Gyr Abania; the first zone of 6.0 is Ghimlyt.

In 6.0 we go to Garlemald and put an end to their reign of terror once and for all. Approach Ilsabard by traveling over land through Ghimlyt, but before we can make it through the Magna Glacies, we find that there's too much military presence between Ilsabard and Aldenard, so we then reroute and rendezvous at the hub city of the expansion; Radz-at-Han! We gain access to the two zones of Thavnair, north and south, and set up base in Radz as it's a neutral territory from which we head north to Garlemald through an airship disguised as a merchant ship. Before we get there we pass through Nhalmasque, a region long annexed by Garlemald that had been thoroughly ravaged. A great way to put the cruelty of the empire on full display. The end hub could then be dug out of part of the city proper, where we aid internal resistance. 6.0 ending at the very beginning of civil war after we kill Anima (and therefore Varis) would be pretty raw, I'll be honest, but that probably wouldn't be very realistic. I think a Garlemald expansion would be the perfect time to pull out the FF7 references, Midgar and Sephiroth's theme and all that fancy stuff.
This is a scorching hot nuclear take, but I think we should fight and "kill" Elidibus in the patch quests, specifically 6.3 to act as the "finale" of the Garlemald arc since the empire was created by the Ascians, "killing" the heart of their god, thus deactivating him and his protection, and restarting the doomsday clock without realizing it would be pretty raw. He'll be back though, I know better than to let such a major figure fade out so easily.

With Zodiark's aetherial barriers now fading, Exarch now finds it easier to start soulsnatching us; 7.0 is when we get Shadowbringers. This time, instead of rushing to save the first and return back to the source to resume holding off the empire just to find out they're conveniently destroying themselves so we don't have to, we have to race against the clock to start preventing the Final Days again. Otherwise, SHB can go on virtually the same as it did, only this time the lore it drops is a lot heavier because we had more time to build up previous knowledge. For example, we would probably already know that HydZod are primals. Going to Amaurot could trigger echo memories of the Final Days and give us a glimpse at the summoning of Zodiark and Venat formulating her plan. This also gives us the potential to have what the writers initially intended, which is Eden being the final boss. Sure, it might be Meteion-tier disappointment, but we could at least know Hades is yet to be defeated (and will be in 7.3). After the first is saved from light extinction, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire as we head back to the source and cracks are starting to form, blasphemies emerging. It's small at first, but worrying enough to know that we have to get a move on.

Welcome to 8.0, the first expansion in which the level cap is not boosted past 100 (or 99 if we want to go real JRPG) to represent that after all of our journeys we've maxed out our power. Now we're tasked to put it to the ultimate test as we fight against despair itself threatening to end all existence (though I would really prefer if it were localized to our galaxy, and we could take comfort in knowing that millions of lightyears out there are planets bursting with life, I just find that much better than something that insinuates an inane "humans r superior" message).

From then on it's all changes I've already talked about these past few months; Sharlayan guards knowledge about all of the past calamities and the sundering, which was given to them by Venat who guided Nyunkrepf as her prophet, we need this knowledge to fully know what we're up against. Elidibus takes a role in the story as a helper because PLOT TWIST we didn't actually kill him and we just deactivated Zodiark. He guides us to unsundered Etheirys where we get multiple zones, and carry out a storyline about helping them prevent the Final Days in their time thus creating an alternate timeline that we can then access through the engineered Crystal Tower's spacetime travel. The second mid-story trial can be Meteion, in which we defeat her before she escapes to become a galactical terrorist. Ultima Thule would be... cooler? Idk, the design of the zone just didn't do it for me. If it was placed in the center of the galaxy in front of a supermassive black hole I would absolutely lose my mind. Also, this is kinda minor but I would scrap Labyrinthos entirely and instead move outside Sharlayan to the Old World islands for the first zone of the expansion. Damn Daniel himself should be the first mid-story trial, as we try to stop him from hopping into Zodiark. After we return from saving the unsundered world, we have Elidibus hop back into Zodiark like a battery starting him up again. Zodiark finally speaks to us for the first time, and offers us his aid in the fight against the despair threatening our galaxy.

After the final dungeon, Hydaelyn and Zodiark join together and, with our aid in a scene that resembles the scene at the end of Praetorium when we "kill" Lahabrea, we unite for a single strike against the eldritch entity that finally ends it. Zodiark and Elidibus, having exhausted all of their aether, finally pass once and for all, and can die somewhat happily knowing that their world is saved in another timeline and they managed to finally put an end to the threat that started the destruction of their star in this timeline. Or perhaps Elidibus passes on after we challenge Hydaelyn and defeat her for the crimes of sundering the world and to free us all from her tempering, thus serving as the final trial of 8.0. Having lived to see her destruction, he decides retribution was somewhat properly enacted and he can finally rest. Now that the world is free of her thrall, free to determine their own future, things are Real Damn Good in the world, both here and in the alternate timeline. The end, but wait there's still more adventures to be had, blah blah blah, onto a bright future of gimmicky expansions we go!

If everything were to happen like this, the story would last from 2010 to 2025, be inherently entwined into an overarching plot, and conclude with no stone unturned. I know that sounds like a stupidly long wait but the thing is I don't care. In fact, having it last that long with everything being clear and consistent, plotlines being wrapped up satisfactorily and as few holes as possible in the story seems much more appealing to me than trying to close it off suddenly and move on. It would also be an INSANE accomplishment, to say an MMO of all things had a 15 year single player-level storyline that was fully consistent. But, something like that was doomed to never happen ever since SB's conception. Still, it's nice to imagine what could've been. Maybe I should learn to time travel and Graha this timeline into existence.

[Iscah]

We're friends with Hermes after the sick things he does? That man is a monster

How are we friends with Hermes tho lmao....

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

[anhaato]

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

Me after some guy I talked to a few times one day suddenly becomes a mass murderer: oh no, my bestie, this isn’t you, please come to your senses!

[jameseoakes]

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

[Kolsykol]

I think the honeymoon phase is beginning to wear off now, even on sites which aren't usually particularly critical (or to be more accurate, are usually gushing with praise.)

The only place I see this kind of negativity is here on the forums and it's always the same people ( including in this thread ) who are essentially always negative about everything about the game.

I'm thinking there are a lot of people like myself out there who initially loved Endwalker, took everything in at face value (which is what Yoshi wanted us to do), then started to go back and look at certain aspects of the story. I've even seen people start to creep up on Reddit with criticisms. As Yukiko said, the more you think about Endwalker's story, the more it falls apart and I don't appreciate Yoshida telling us we're thinking about it too much.

I dunno the exact context of what he said and how.
But I think there is such a thing as thinking too much about it, if people were as hypercritical about any other game, movie or show as they are about this it'd all fall apart too.
Especially since some people for some bizarre reason are already set on hating basically anything the devs do and 99% of their presence on the forum is just that, if you set your mind to hating something then it's very easy to find reasons to do it.
I also don't think that a character like Hermes can be a likeable or sympathetic character if you hyperfocus on what he did and that's the only thing you really think about.
Which is kinda weird too considering everything Emet did too and yet people have no issues appreciating his character, and we're talking about a guy who ran around genociding others.

Again I dunno what exactly he meant with that, but I don't think it's really about people just '' thinking about it '' it's about how they do it and the intent behind it.
If you go into something with the intent to find problems you're going to find it.

I have this problem too with a lot of media, especially shows and games that proclaim to be '' realistic '' if they do that then I am just going to become EXTREMELY nitpicky and it becomes almost impossible for me to enjoy it.

Edit: On the note of Emet too, it should be noted that he did it for a VERY long time.
Hermes didn't have the same amount of time to think about what he was doing, he made a decision in the moment based on what he was currently feeling.
Emet had plenty of time over the years to consider it and he still kept going with it.
Even if Emet had a more understandable motive he wasn't acting impulsively like Hermes was.

I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

Tbh to some extent it doesn't matter what you personally feel, because our characters are not actually us.
We don't have any real choice in our characters personality and what they think and feel ( outside of very small details ), what matters is what our characters feel which is something the writers control.

Me after some guy I talked to a few times one day suddenly becomes a mass murderer: oh no, my bestie, this isn’t you, please come to your senses!

It's not just us it's everyone else too, I also think that our '' past '' as Azem plays a role too in how we feel even if on a subconscious level.
Sorta like how Hythlodaeus almost felt like we were Azem and opened up more to us.

[aveyond-dreams]

Things don't need to be so much as "realistic" as they need to simply be logical. Endwalker took turns that veered away from that. We can logically sympathize with Emet easier than we can with Hermes for a number of reasons, one of them being that he was given the time and setup he needed to make sense of his position rather than just shoving his emotions down our throat by force in a span of a few hours with Hermes in Elpis.