Class Balance will it ever exist at least to a fair degree?

[Peptaru]

Take PGL over MNK as a DD? lol

This job system is going over so many heads. I guess I can't blame people after the classes tunnel-visioned so many of them into the "I have to be 100% self sufficient in a party of 8 people" mentality.

I'm pretty sure if you read what the person you quoted said, the points all relate to survivability not to DD ability. The points were tied in with situation specific examples and so on, did you read it or did you just jump at seeing "take pgl instead of mnk"? they even set out examples of best efficiency when on mnk as opposed to pgl.... so ya! ok..... i guess so many people are tunnel-visioned into attacking anyone who says to use a class instead of a job lol ('cept lolpld)

[NoctisUmbra]

The job system has clearly gone over your head lol.

MNK does not replace PGL as a DD. PGL is still a DD, ableit one with more survivability then MNK. You choose one or other based on how badly you might need that extra survivability. Ifrit is a pretty strong case for having extra survivability, especially on a class like PGL. Not only are you eating aoes, you have to deal with sear. Obviously (this is where you failed to read) if you don't need that extra survivability due to personal skill level THEN you take MNK. Next time read instead of trying to troll. Jobs don't replace classes. Its ironic you accuse me of missing the point of jobs when you missed it *entirely*

Fists of Wind. Wind > Fire. Almost half the cooldown on very important weaponskills. ~25% increased movement speed that makes eruptions a joke.

The point of the Job system is greater rewards for greater skill and codependency among players.

Having a WHM throw regen on MNK coupled with the already potent Second Wind covers MNK's HP loss from Sear rather well. Some spot heals from the BRD can make it no problem at all. All this maintenance for what? To have the highest DPS out of all the jobs/classes on Ifrit.

I don't know where you got the idea I was a troll, but I'm not surprised since that label gets tossed around like nothing. Especially when at the same time you're trying to tell me that the system has gone over my head because apparently I can still use classes. Wow. Huge discovery there lol.

My point is that many people are so accustomed to this notion that you have to be self-sufficient instead of depending on team members that they will go in as a class even when they're effectively downgrading their efficiency at their role.

I'm pretty sure if you read what the person you quoted said, the points all relate to survivability not to DD ability. The points were tied in with situation specific examples and so on, did you read it or did you just jump at seeing "take pgl instead of mnk"? they even set out examples of best efficiency when on mnk as opposed to pgl.... so ya! ok..... i guess so many people are tunnel-visioned into attacking anyone who says to use a class instead of a job lol ('cept lolpld)

MNK is a significantly better DD on Ifrit than PGL. That is the role it is their to fill. So long as a fight is not essentially suicidal at such close range as MNK/PGL has to be, the survivability is not concern as that's what WHMs and BRDs are for. So many people underestimate Regen- they don't realize how overpowered it is. I see this with WHMs in game much more often that I should.

[Peptaru]

The OP was talking about dying and gettin wrecked, so ya...... maybe he should be more self-sufficient, who said this applies to all monks in all parties?

[NoctisUmbra]

The OP was talking about dying and gettin wrecked, so ya...... maybe he should be more self-sufficient, who said this applies to all monks in all parties?

I'm responding to Lux Rayna regarding PGL vs MNK in the Ifrit fight. The OP has already realized that MNK is more than viable and effective as a DD in Ifrit and has already said so.

[Lux_Rayna]

Fists of Wind. Wind > Fire. Almost half the cooldown on very important weaponskills.

The point of the Job system is greater rewards for greater skill and codependency among players.

Having a WHM throw regen on MNK coupled with the already potent Second Wind covers MNK's HP loss from Sear rather well. Some spot heals from the BRD can make it no problem at all. All this maintenance for what? To have the highest DPS out of all the jobs/classes on Ifrit.

I don't know where you got the idea I was a troll, but I'm not surprised since that label gets tossed around like nothing. Especially when at the same time you're trying to tell me that the system has gone over my head because apparently I can still use classes. Wow. Huge discovery there lol.

My point is that many people are so accustomed to this notion that you have to be self-sufficient instead of depending on team members that they will go in as a class even when they're effectively downgrading their efficiency at their role.



MNK is a significantly better DD on Ifrit than PGL. That is the role it is their to fill. So long as a fight is not essentially suicidal at such close range as MNK/PGL has to be, the survivability is not concern as that's what WHMs and BRDs are for. So many people underestimate Regen- they don't realize how overpowered it is. I see this with WHMs in game much more often that I should.

I said you were a troll because you implied I didn't grasp the job system when I, in fact, did.

Fact is, few ppl have the skill necessary to pull off the Ifrit fight well as a MNK. If you can't do it right, just take pgl. That was basically what my post meant. I automatically assume that the person in question can't do it as a MNK because I know the majority can't. Of course you'd take MNK over PGL if you were good enough, but that hardly applies to everyone..not even mostly everyone.

Basically, I dont know why anyone would take MNK over PGL because I dont find the increased dmg necessary over the increased survivability. PGL still does great dmg, so unless you can do Ifrit in your sleep, I don't see the need for using MNK over PGL.

I do understand your point, but a pug will not take the time to heal a DD ever. At least no pug i've ever been in. If healers actually healed DD's during downtime then there would never be a need for self sufficiency. Since that is not the case (yet), relying on team members to keep your hp up will always result in your death lol. Least thats my experience on Lindblum.

[NoctisUmbra]

I said you were a troll because you implied I didn't grasp the job system when I, in fact, did.

Fact is, few ppl have the skill necessary to pull off the Ifrit fight well as a MNK. If you can't do it right, just take pgl. That was basically what my post meant. I automatically assume that the person in question can't do it as a MNK because I know the majority can't. Of course you'd take MNK over PGL if you were good enough, but that hardly applies to everyone..not even mostly everyone.

Honestly MNK is easier to pull off in Ifrit than PGL if you ask me. The increased movement speed gives you a greater window of error for avoiding eruptions and/or weaving in and out of Sears if you so chose. The general point though is that Regen plays a huge role here. So one can say playing MNK vs PGL depends more on how on-the-ball your WHMs and perhaps BRD is.

Basically, I dont know why anyone would take MNK over PGL because I dont find the increased dmg necessary over the increased survivability. PGL still does great dmg, so unless you can do Ifrit in your sleep, I don't see the need for using MNK over PGL.

The damage increase is very, very noticeable. Fire is weak to Wind. That already makes everything hit harder. That's not even the point though. With Spinning Heel MNK has greater TP generation. Coupled with this FoW MNK wearing Temple Boots has a ~40% decrease(?) to all WS cooldowns. This is essentially an everlasting Keen Flurry. Then there's the extra speed to run away from Ifrit during eruptions, and Shoulder Tackle to make a quick dash return to him whilst dealing free damage. MNK is a DPS monster. PGL is comparable to other DDs at best.

I do understand your point, but a pug will not take the time to heal a DD ever. At least no pug i've ever been in. If healers actually healed DD's during downtime then there would never be a need for self sufficiency. Since that is not the case (yet), relying on team members to keep your hp up will always result in your death lol. Least thats my experience on Lindblum.

I wasn't directly attacking you honestly. At least I didn't mean to come across like that. My point was moreso that players overall haven't adapted to the codependency that the jobs demand in order to be more effective. If a PUG is not taking the time to heal a DD, they've become accustomed to having DDs that are self sufficient - even though their healers have become much better at what they do as a WHM and the DD jobs are much better than the classes at the cost of being dependent on heals. Most of the time, like with MNK on Ifrit, this can be solved with something as simple as a WHM throwing Regens every once in a while on the DDs for good measure and the BRD giving effective support with tossing Stoneskins.

[Lux_Rayna]

Honestly MNK is easier to pull off in Ifrit than PGL if you ask me. The increased movement speed gives you a greater window of error for avoiding eruptions and/or weaving in and out of Sears if you so chose. The general point though is that Regen plays a huge role here. So one can say playing MNK vs PGL depends more on how on-the-ball your WHMs and perhaps BRD is.

Oh didnt think about the movement speed increase, such an easy thing to forget about lol. Good point.

The damage increase is very, very noticeable. Fire is weak to Wind. That already makes everything hit harder. That's not even the point though. With Spinning Heel MNK has greater TP generation. Coupled with this FoW MNK wearing Temple Boots has a ~40% decrease(?) to all WS cooldowns. This is essentially an everlasting Keen Flurry. Then there's the extra speed to run away from Ifrit during eruptions, and Shoulder Tackle to make a quick dash return to him whilst dealing free damage. MNK is a DPS monster. PGL is comparable to other DDs at best.

Ive been wondering now how it compares the usual thm/blm stacking that goes on...I said that earlier because I assumed a MNK was still inferior to THM/BLMS in terms of dmg output, especially on Ifrit, but I guess that may not be true now lol. At least not vastly inferior.

I wasn't directly attacking you honestly. At least I didn't mean to come across like that. My point was moreso that players overall haven't adapted to the codependency that the jobs demand in order to be more effective. If a PUG is not taking the time to heal a DD, they've become accustomed to having DDs that are self sufficient - even though their healers have become much better at what they do as a WHM and the DD jobs are much better than the classes at the cost of being dependent on heals. Most of the time, like with MNK on Ifrit, this can be solved with something as simple as a WHM throwing Regens every once in a while on the DDs for good measure and the BRD giving effective support with tossing Stoneskins.

Lol my baaad...forums leave me defensive :X

But yeah I fully understand your point now, and I agree. Would be nice if everyone got on the co-dependency train instead of thinking in the old system.

[Peptaru]

All healers and support jobs need to come around before melee jobs can even think about coming around, if you don't get cured, as much as it sucks, you'll need to be on your class instead of your job. the alternative is dying repeatedly and hoping your mages learn quickly or find the time to keep you alive too. (yes i know regen is really fast and easy, but i still don't get it sometimes)

[Lux_Rayna]

All healers and support jobs need to come around before melee jobs can even think about coming around, if you don't get cured, as much as it sucks, you'll need to be on your class instead of your job. the alternative is dying repeatedly and hoping your mages learn quickly or find the time to keep you alive too. (yes i know regen is really fast and easy, but i still don't get it sometimes)

Thereby lies the conundrum. If we always play our class, healers will never come around, since we will be healing ourselves. Thus, the status quo will be forever perpetuated. The only solution is to play a job and ask for regens now and then, or die and accept the inevitable flaming. Eventually, healers will learn to cope..or DDs will never get invited into parties again. We need revolution!!!

[NoctisUmbra]

All healers and support jobs need to come around before melee jobs can even think about coming around, if you don't get cured, as much as it sucks, you'll need to be on your class instead of your job. the alternative is dying repeatedly and hoping your mages learn quickly or find the time to keep you alive too. (yes i know regen is really fast and easy, but i still don't get it sometimes)

Yup. I've been preaching this as much as I can. The WHMs have no trouble transitioning for the most part since they were already healers as CNJs. As far as they go it's simply spreading awareness of how amazing Regen is.

The primary change is the ARC > BRD. So many players are still playing BRD with a focus on DD. It has pretty much the lowest DD out of the DDs, which include MNK, BLM, DRG. The songs are essential of course and are the primary reason that they will always be in demand, but they can also be a very effective boon to the party by throwing support heals and more importantly Stoneskins. Their DD is still good but it should be secondary to their primary role.

I feel like once the omgdpsiswhatiplayfor BRDs come around to realizing how to best support their party and how that is NOT through trying to top DPS, the job system as a whole will begin to be more effective and desirable universally.