Public Discussion: Community Feedback - Is it being heard?

[SturmChurro]

That's why initial posts will have the majority of likes, but actual engagement drops massively past the first (default) page or 2. I don't think many edit the replies per page from the default 10, so even some of the threads with 2-300 likes on the first few comments drop massively to 20-30 on the next set of 10, and then even less the further you go.

I'm not saying lurkers don't like posts, I'm saying the community team bases the feedback it takes back to the dev team on engagement and likes. And in a lot of these threads, there's not much engagement outside of small groups.

I'm just not sure if a lot of it goes to the devs regardless of how popular it is, at least on the forums. Like I was saying earlier, if it is, it's getting ignored, because there are some really glaring issues, that the community has repeatedly given feedback for, for years, that just isn't really acknowledged. Yoshida has repeatedly said he was "surprised" to hear about certain feedback. It has to be a really viral issue to get a response and even then, depending on what it is, it can be very subdued.

As for the 10 posts a page, I do not believe people do edit that. If you are at the bottom of the page, you will likely be ignored unless someone else quotes you later. People do read the threads, but it's typically whatever is on the last page at the time, and usually what's on top. Heck, I don't read most posts, and even when I go back pages, I am skimming through them. I often read things wrong, because of the speed at which I am going through some of these replies.

[Dyvid]

Off the top of my head I can think of many interactions where players requested things and SE responded in some way. This may not be 100% correct but I think it captures the flavor of what I am trying to say:

Players asked for DPS meter. Yoshi-p initially said it would be doable via an eventual client-side add-on mechanism, but ultimately decided in favor of no DPS meters ever, citing bullying concerns.
Players asked for BLU. SE delivered limited job (showing their vision for BLU is very different from FFXI's.)
Players asked for full BLU job like FFXI. SE said nope, limited job. (They liked a BLU that could learn tons of skills and become unbalanced vs. standard jobs.)
Players asked for viera. SE delivered limited races of f viera and m hrothgar and said "no more races" citing ongoing/multiplicative resource development cost/effort.
Players asked for viera and hrothgar headgear. SE said no but then delivered some headgear, apparently via an internal skunkworks project.
[... many additional examples deleted for brevity]

The examples indicate (to me at least) that SE often seems to hear player requests, but doesn't necessarily respond with the exact action that players are requesting (or demanding), and they usually have some rationale for doing so. That doesn't seem unreasonable. It also doesn't seem unreasonable for some players to comment if the response isn't what they wanted (even if it is what they are getting for now) or if they do not find the rationale compelling. However, I think they could perhaps publish a FAQ on some of these issues explaining the rationale for each decision. And as I mentioned I like the idea of periodic/monthly Q&A managed by the regional community teams to augment the limited number of questions which can fit into a producer live letter.

Well as an example to what I'm talk about let take the Viera Hrothgar headgear issue. If SE came and talk to us we could discuss our issues and maybe come to a compromise like job gear and raid headwear. But were aren't even close because as you said; SE is no and we are yes.

Like you, I feel we need some quarterly feedback and maybe end of patch survey to the Devs can gauge what their player base is feeling in terms of current issues. That's not a lot to ask considering we (The FFXIV Customers) are the ones keeping Square Enix profit margins up.

[Rolder50]

Well as an example to what I'm talk about let take the Viera Hrothgar headgear issue. If SE came and talk to us we could discuss our issues and maybe come to a compromise like job gear and raid headwear. But were aren't even close because as you said; SE is no and we are yes.

Like you, I feel we need some quarterly feedback and maybe end of patch survey to the Devs can gauge what their player base is feeling in terms of current issues. That's not a lot to ask considering we (The FFXIV Customers) are the ones keeping Square Enix profit margins up.

For viera/hroth headgear, the truly astonishing thing is that they release brand new head pieces that STILL don't work on them. I can understand, begrudgingly, the issue fixing old gear, but brand new stuff made after viera were put in? Come on now.

[RokkuEkkusu]

And now people feel my pain of when I am also often being ignored or outspoken of my opinions and qualities of life that may help the game.

[Deceptus]

The fact it took them seven years to finally accept that the DRK ability Living Dead was unsustainable says everything you need to know on if they "Listen" or not.

We're 5 years into the "Healer Re-balancing" from Stormblood so hopefully in the next expansion or two they figure out healers are unhappy.

They'll say they listen, but they will ultimately do whatever they want.

[kpxmanifesto]

Just putting the question out here because we've gone through so many changes over the years, I'm not sure if we're being heard anymore. If you're going to say "Oh, but it must only apply to your group", then perhaps we should take this in a more serious context.

Has the Community Team been following our discussions and our requests on the Forums? Because it feels like they ignore half the things we ask for and implement stuff that's fluff or just a band-aid to a bigger problem, and I've seen the pattern over the years both with jobs and with content. I'm curious what the community's opinion is since these forums are supposed to be looked at every business day by the CMs for things that might be important or helpful in the development process, or if there's an issue that needs listening to.

Some things are and some things aren't being heard. What we know is that feedback about lack of data being displayed on the UI is sort of being heard, and we know that because the devs are agreeing to add UI enhancements to the game. Other things, not so much.

[Iscah]

For viera/hroth headgear, the truly astonishing thing is that they release brand new head pieces that STILL don't work on them. I can understand, begrudgingly, the issue fixing old gear, but brand new stuff made after viera were put in? Come on now.

Because it's to do with the design of the item, not whether it's new or old.

Hats never work unless they fully cover the head and hide the hair, like hoods and the Reaper hat (possibly with some dependence on the shape of the top). Circlets and hair decorations that don't affect the model almost always work.

There are some older hoods that could probably be adapted but currently aren't, but overall the pattern is clear.

With the current approach at least, the only way to not create anything incompatible with them would be to never give anyone hats ever again.

[Payotz]

Square has shown time and time again that their approach in job design and content is to make new players, not the core players, happy.
This whole thing isn't new, and it's been happening ever since Stormblood.
I'm glad that people are starting to realize how dumbed down the job design has gotten, but I honestly think that the dev team is too set in their ways to course correct.

I've been playing WoW on the side ever since they ruined MCH, and honestly with how many flaws that game has, at least the core job design and job identity in WoW is still intact.
Healers and Tanks still feel unique (Disc Priest and Brewmaster cough) and Tanks still need to manage aggro. Dungeons aren't just spammy hallways where you pull everything wall to wall first time through.
And WoW managed to achieve that with LESS BUTTONS than FF14s.

Meanwhile back in FF14:

Physical Ranged is still the baby mode DPS "first time Savage OwO please carry me UwU / 1% party buff" role , a far cry from the support dps identity it used to have. Literally zero mechanics that abuses the mobility that ranged physicals have, no resource management cooldowns, no palisade or dismantle. Just a bottom of the barrel "press button xd" role that only exists for the 1% buff. (Give me back Stormblood MCH btw )
It's honestly the role that has the most nuance removed from it. Even Bard procs aren't even tied to DoTs anymore. It's absolutely the pinnacle of job design for Square, and the endgoal of job design for every job in FF14.

Healers are still the boring ass spam 1 press 2 every 30 seconds rotation job, in a game where the only time you heal is during prog and only in specific fights. Even fucking Holy Priest has a dps rotation in WoW, and they have more demanding heal checks in that game compared to this game.

DRK is still a fucking WAR clone. They destroyed Dark Arts to a point where it just became irrelevant and removed it from the game, and they never replaced it with anything since.
Where's my job identity Square? WHERE IS IT?

Warrior doesn't have stance dancing, doesn't have the crit rate increase whenever you're near full for resource. Upheaval isn't even tied to resource anymore and rage is only really used for Fell Cleave and that's it.

It's obvious that they're not gonna listen to feedback because it ruins their "vision". Given them plenty of chances and both Shadowbringers and Endwalker has disappointed me.
I can't wait til they eventually dumb Savage down to current EX level and Ultimate to current Savage level so I can actually unsub and leave.

[Jeeqbit]

DRK is still a fucking WAR clone. They destroyed Dark Arts to a point where it just became irrelevant and removed it from the game, and they never replaced it with anything since.

Dark Arts spam was replaced with Edge of Shadow spam. DRK is not quite a WAR clone because DRK's version of WAR's actions are mostly off the GCD and DRK is more about shielding rather than self-healing.

DRK's aoe is much more interesting than WAR because of the off globals and only PLD has caught up to it.

[Rolder50]

Because it's to do with the design of the item, not whether it's new or old.

Hats never work unless they fully cover the head and hide the hair, like hoods and the Reaper hat (possibly with some dependence on the shape of the top). Circlets and hair decorations that don't affect the model almost always work.

There are some older hoods that could probably be adapted but currently aren't, but overall the pattern is clear.

With the current approach at least, the only way to not create anything incompatible with them would be to never give anyone hats ever again.

I would money bet that the majority of viera players would be okay with hats that look a little goofy (either because ears clip through, or because the ears are hidden) if it meant having more hat options. There's also the fact that hat hiding is already a UI option.