Final Fantasy 14's grinds feel horrible to midcore players

[Raoabolic]

Why are MMO players so threatened by people comparing their MMO to another? Seems like every time I bring up a system in FF14 that is better than Lost Ark's I get the same type of response there too.

Now you are just projecting. You are a broken record at this point, at least use other MMOs as reference if you are going to keep your title of Lost Ark apologist while being objective. That's all he's saying, lol.

[LeonKeyh]

Yup, to both Points.
It IS just another ""FFXIV bad and LA good"" post
At the same time, Im not advocating against learning from the Competition.

The main point of my Post at its core though, it is "Another" Post basically Advertising Lost Ark on the FFXIV Forums
I never said anything against it...just that it happened..Again XD

That's because Lost Ark is the more recent (in the west) "successful" MMO. It's not like they're making multiple topics about some 10 year old game out of nowhere. It's definitely annoying to hear about certain games over and over, but this is in the zeitgeist.

If you have issues with the idea, you should be criticizing the idea, not the source.

[Saraide]

Now you are just projecting. You are a broken record at this point, at least use other MMOs as reference if you are going to keep your title of Lost Ark apologist while being objective. That's all he's saying, lol.

I feel like we are lacking massive amounts of context here. Does it look like skiros is only talking about the good things lost ark does on here? On a surface level yes, but what would be the point to lament about the failings of that game here? Games are not just extremely polarized good or bad, they are a mix of flaws and good ideas. If another game does something better that FF14 can learn from, why not do it. This design idea has been central for yoship in the beginning atleast if that one slideshow he did is to be believed.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

If you have issues with the idea, you should be criticizing the idea, not the source.

Sometimes I really question if people actually read my posts....

[Shougun]

Definitely think this could be good, and I believe you could do it to a lot of systems (adding context I've not played Lost Ark, I just like the example photo more incremental and less barren concept and I particularly like the new PvP system FFXIV has itself). Also like in your example picture it would be nice to see a visualization of the obviously related achievements, rather than 5 individual achievements it's a stack (kill 10, 50, 100, 100000000000 don't need to separated out really).

Another that might help is the challenge log becoming a bit more empowered, hunt log (getting upgrades too), and sight seeing log.

Personally I envision a sort of token for challenge log and achievements, that can be used to purchase other things of interest - like current tomestones (rate of return depending on which tomestone, like end game tomestones having a less friendly rate). During moogle events you can use them to buy the previous event (current event using the same tokens as they've always used, more extreme but could be quite exciting for some players is a moogle anniversary event where you can purchase all past events during that period). The veteran / achievement token system being moved over to it. Adding consumables, like rare dye. Perhaps making the veteran system the 1 year thing we have currently plus X mog shop kupo nut tokens every Y interval (long enough to not invalidate their funds, but not so long that it takes 4 years to buy one mount lol).

Achievement log having many reward items moved a bit earlier to the mid-core level while the end-core would be title achievements. Adding profile rewards (the new profile system they added recently for pvp / calling card), include that into the forums too with perhaps a slightly larger avatar photo (slightly larger width, bit longer- more room for players to pose and show their gear). So the special unique theme specific rewards not being at the crazy end, the titles being at the crazy end, tokens being scattered through all the tiers (tokens that can almost always be relevant), and then other unique rewards that can be theme specific via the profile system.

Challenge log also specifically getting some boosts to some rewards, like getting exp to all their combat related tasks or boosting the others. 15% isn't awful but it's once a week lol. Or like treasures is not at all. I think it would be neat if you could do more things and get exp (like treasures, or PvP- from the log specifically). Maybe consider some logs with X amount of times you can complete or they're daily, and are specifically for EXP, meanwhile the ones that bring in tokens can be once a week.

Besides obvious token purchases via the new token could also be other new wild tools. Like 1.5-2x the effectiveness of your next epic echo (wont fall off on exit of game or whatever until you enter content that has it and received treasure / exp, additional 25% reduced damage to blue mages- epic echo doesn't work on current content as a reminder), 100% chance to learn next blue spell, Next 10 (solo) deep dungeon levels have 25% increased damage 25% reduced incoming damage but that entire run will not be added to the leaderboard until it's restarted, +X large amount to all elements (Eureka), next craft that fails will return all items (self initiates when the game crashes).

Hunts, Shared FATEs (shb system), beast tribes, and sight seeing log could be revamped and all placed neatly into a new Field Guide log.

Which conveniently tracks progress in the zone and rewards you for making a variety of steps. FATEs might have a first time bonus, tetra card npcs being listed and shown if you've completed them (or beat them even). I imagine the field guide might be a large UI like the achievement log with two pages in a book like interface with paper bookmarks on the left and top. Such you can click beast tribe and get info about your tokens, their location on the map, etc. Revamps including incorporating the multiple systems together into an enhanced zone level and reward system. Like in ShB when you rank up a zone it says you make it safer but nothing really changes except the store. Now the zone's rank would be informed by a number of gameplay and perhaps some gating by beast tribe and side quest / msq if applicable. Getting points for doing fates, killing hunts, points of interest log, etc. Each zone's rank having milestones for rewards along with ranking up the zone, displaying conveniently in a bar.

Points of interest (POI) being the new sight seeing log, which revamps many locations to be more friendly and diverse. Friendly being for example it will change the time and date to what they wanted you to see, and do a nice camera pan, rather than force you to wait a month to get it right. Diverse being some might be monsters to fight, unique quests with a bit extra love in them (not MSQ, but side quest+ quality), jumping puzzles (with check points for long or particularly difficult ones), chocobo races, mini-games (like the music mini-game they've worked on), etc.

Ranks to the zone impacting the shop as it did before (adding this to older content over time as reasonable paced), but also opening up more opportunities like fortifying beast tribes. I feel a good use of the beast tribe token system might be allowing players to invest the tokens back into the tribe, for example the cabbage tribe () you might be able to unlock a shimmering glade where you can dunk ARR relics for a light multiplier (huge boost to light, or alternatively it just straight up adds light each day lol). Being able to upgrade the beast tribe spaces I think would be quite fun, and a good excuse to have them cost a decent amount (or come in multiple steps). If you've got much later in the MSQ you can rank up the Kobold area to have scaffolding loop from the Limsa camp to the beast tribe camp- with some kobold showing up in the limsa space as well. Besides relic, which I think isn't a bad idea (to have systems that add more options to relics /after/ the next expansion relic is introduced), you could also add things like squadron / trust enhancements. Like being able to change up your GC's appearance, the AI behaviors, new skills or like accessory equipable skills (unique potions, spells, etc). New members all together, like very high rank Fae after you complete the Fae MSQ might allow you to have Feo Ul as a team member (or potentially new limit breaks to your squad / trust, and Feo Ul could be one of them).

Hunts conveniently being organized, in this situation in the field guide when you're looking at the zone page but also a tab dedicated to all your hunts (such you can view zone specific, but also "all the hunts I have"), coming with potential encouragements to first time kills of hunts, maybe tracking general locations (after found the first time), etc. Going back to the challenge log comment but adding that- like kill 5 unique b ranks will give you 25% exp. Consider adding syncing to b ranks as well, such that killing a hunt you've a bill for can reward substantial exp (and their usual nuts)- but make the syncing not too aggressive (so like the monster syncs 2 levels away from you, unless you're over their level you find them at and which case they sync to your level exactly- level 75 fighting a level 80 b rank would make the b rank level 77, level 70 fighting a level 60 b rank would make it level 70). May consider tweaks to the hunt system at the same time, like b ranks might be more engaging with different mad lib engagement systems (one itme you might get to an area and hunt their tracks, another time you might need to draw them out, or sometimes you just use a compass to find them, this making them more personal instanced monsters (b ranks specifically)). In such a system when you get a b rank, if using the instanced hunt concept, then you're far more likely to get a mark you've never had before (to make collecting them all less frustrating).

Semi-related to the above but I feel the fanfare on some of these events could be improved a lot. Like sfx and screen splash when you get an achievement (I know some stuff shows up, but it feels more like a silent moment to me rather than like YEEEEEHOOOOO). Particularly given this is a FF game and fanfare battle music is like "every single fight, always" lol. Make me feel speciul . Challenge log being improved too (more subtle than achievement), I know there is a popup box but it's more like a toast notification you'd see on your OS (and no sound). Other examples where I think it needs to be more exciting would be discovering new locations and ranking up your zone via the shared fate system (I usually only notice I ranked up the zone because I checked the log lol). Particularly trying not to make the sounds sound like space ships would be nice.... as I imagine the game might want to do- WoW's text for discovering a new area is 'okay' but the sound effect is quite great (as an example).

More of an aside but related for me to the idea of challenge log granting better exp, and that being helpful, is a roleplay merit system that allows players to purchase job specific roleplay (non-ultimate content affecting) changes. Like dragoon being able to unlock half fall damage, and no fall damage for substantially more (after unlocking half), or being able to hold space bar for a much higher jump in areas they've unlocked flying already. Dark Knight might be able to get the cool shadow smoke / mist effect from the HW trails (rather than the red Kaioken dragon ball z aura). Changing animations, adding roleplay elements, and unlocking unusual things. White Mage might be able to unlock holy breast plate, like they had in FFXI. Or maybe even a generic section- for example it might be all excess exp earned on DoL / DoH and combat jobs that you willingly convert merit exp into general could be used to unlock things like "alchemist glamour can be used on all jobs". Like a sphere grid or something it might also have other locks (besides level) like finishing MSQ or other content. Finish all the Crystarium DoL quests and you unlock the node that allows you to harvest while mounted (if looking silly is a concern might be that it visually dismounts you on interaction and immediately remounts you afterwards, like with stealth this could be a toggle skill).

A lot of different things said but for example if the challenge log, achievement log, and field guide were all working together there would be quite a long time of just making loads of progress. Then when you've completed the field guide and you're doing tasks you're still making substantial progress because the challenge tokens can be converted into more interesting rewards. 5k gil from doing treasures might not really interest me but if I could turn that into end game tomes, or more poetics because I'm doing relics.. that could be nice. Also allows players to make progress in more ways, even if they're not the fastest. Like if doing the golden saucer challenge log gave you 5% exp lol, or you could turn it into 5 end game stones. With many systems bound together in such a way the feel good "Always be progressing" is relatively easily attainable, even if not the fastest grindy options lol.

[Ransu]

Lost Ark? You mean that game that just lost half its playerbase when they banned over 400k bots? lawl.

[Neoyoshi]

Are we really using Lost Ark as an example of a non-grindy-er experience versus Final Fantasy XIV online?

Really?

Achievement reward milestone systems aside, Lost Ark is frick'n grindy as frick'n frick.

Sorry about the Connecticut-style F-bombs.

[Skivvy]

Lost Ark? You mean that game that just lost half its playerbase when they banned over 400k bots? lawl.

TBF, if SE banned all our bots, our population would probably take a hit too. Lucky for us, we get to keep ours!

[Doc_Seraph]

Dopamine kupo, at a rudimental level one wants the chase not the actual achievement because as we all well know it is totally non tangible kupo <3

Ex. "Oh, I am almost there!!!" with great excitement chasing and after a week of having the sought after reward do you really give it much thought? kupo <3

So they can either feed you a bunch of easy rewards to keep you chasing but that will eventually yield less dopamine due to you having so many ...or they can give you long grinds and hope the dopamine is enough to keep you working etc..

Question is in the balance and that kupo is the toughest part.

[Klytania]

It feels to me that the crystal conflict battle pass is a serious attempt at making a non-awful grind. Changing old awful grinds though is unfortunately going to be met with a ton of pushback. People would rather have others suffer the same misery as they themselves did than make the game overall better.

Forcing you to do pvp is the definition of awful. Though it could be worse, at least you can just mess around and eventually get everything