Can we point out to how bad it is that SE bends the knee to chan brigades?

[RitsukoSonoda]

Speed down an empty highway out in the country at 150mph. No one will notice unless you lose control of the vehicle.

Speed down the freeway in a major city at 150mph. You're going to get reported.

Basically the context here. Run these things in private where no one else will see it and it will go unnoticed by them unless it does something that can be seen in game by other players. Stream with these mods running so the entire internet can see it... It's now reported by numerous people and SE has no choice really but to take action otherwise it completely undermines the 3rd party tool usage part of the ToS. Technically the ToS was the warning and in situations where the activity is seen by so many people a tiny slap on the wrist is the same as doing nothing. Consequences or corrective action accomplish nothing if it's something the offenders aren't concerned or afraid of.

[HyperiusUltima]

This whole debacle all started when Neverland beat TPS. Honestly? I'm pretty sure TPS was using underhanded 3rd Party Add-ons as well to do these things. Most streamers seem to think they have some sort of protection - until they don't. If I want to be frank, we don't know whether Neverland cleared it with add-on assistance during the fight or not. All we know is that they got World First legitimately and have a VIDEO to prove it. The hatred and malice that people gave TPS AND Neverland just by yelling "CHEATER! CHEATER! CHEATER! CHEATER!" because TPS didn't win is something that shows how horrible people are when their team doesn't win.

If anything, the only add-on to point out in the video is a very, very harmless Add-on that detects the music being played. I'm not saying they should be banned for it, but it does not interfere with gameplay in any way. Back to topic, the development team needs to look inward at their UI team and actually learn from the add-ons themselves - what features people are using, along with what features people like from the add-ons, then implement them into the game legitimately provided it does not change their ESRB rating or violate any laws. In fact, GIVE THE PEOPLE WHO WORK BEHIND THESE ADD-ONS A JOB! The fact these people contribute these programs and plug-ins to help the XIV Community shows how we've grown to understand the nature of the game, and having them on board of your development team would be great provided they fit into the area you place them in. Heck, the UI team could easily learn from them.

[hfang]

If I want to be frank, we don't know whether Neverland cleared it with add-on assistance during the fight or not.

not defending the people screaming about them being cheaters, i think the whole discussion is pointless, but in the RDM's PoV video you can see that they're using, at the very least, slidecast indicators from dalamud's simple tweaks

[SwingLifeAway]

Speed down an empty highway out in the country at 150mph. No one will notice unless you lose control of the vehicle.

Speed down the freeway in a major city at 150mph. You're going to get reported.

The difference is, in this game (EDIT: In high end content*) you don't have a speedometer installed and if you go below 100mph your car explodes.

[gotaname1]

This whole debacle all started when Neverland beat TPS. Honestly? I'm pretty sure TPS was using underhanded 3rd Party Add-ons as well to do these things. Most streamers seem to think they have some sort of protection - until they don't. If I want to be frank, we don't know whether Neverland cleared it with add-on assistance during the fight or not. All we know is that they got World First legitimately and have a VIDEO to prove it. The hatred and malice that people gave TPS AND Neverland just by yelling "CHEATER! CHEATER! CHEATER! CHEATER!" because TPS didn't win is something that shows how horrible people are when their team doesn't win.

If anything, the only add-on to point out in the video is a very, very harmless Add-on that detects the music being played. I'm not saying they should be banned for it, but it does not interfere with gameplay in any way. Back to topic, the development team needs to look inward at their UI team and actually learn from the add-ons themselves - what features people are using, along with what features people like from the add-ons, then implement them into the game legitimately provided it does not change their ESRB rating or violate any laws. In fact, GIVE THE PEOPLE WHO WORK BEHIND THESE ADD-ONS A JOB! The fact these people contribute these programs and plug-ins to help the XIV Community shows how we've grown to understand the nature of the game, and having them on board of your development team would be great provided they fit into the area you place them in. Heck, the UI team could easily learn from them.

can't have it both ways though: its ban all, or ban (almost) nothing. Can't ban dps meters but be okay with 'benign' things like music detectors. It is how the ToS is written after all. It is quite literally black and white.

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It is clear modders are pasionate people, capable of feats the dev team, that gets paid to make the game, can not.

I still love how people rage about visible dps meters when it is already established parsing doesnt mean crud.

[LianaThorne]

can't have it both ways though: its ban all, or ban (almost) nothing. Can't ban dps meters but be okay with 'benign' things like music detectors. It is how the ToS is written after all. It is quite literally black and white.

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It is clear modders are pasionate people, capable of feats the dev team, that gets paid to make the game, can not.

I still love how people rage about visible dps meters when it is already established parsing doesnt mean crud.

They're clearly gonna go the second route, as they've done for years now. They'll ban if it gets too public but otherwise, what the playerbase does is their business.

[Liam_Harper]

Speed down an empty highway out in the country at 150mph. No one will notice unless you lose control of the vehicle.

Speed down the freeway in a major city at 150mph. You're going to get reported.

Not a great comparison at all. Speeding down a freeway could get people killed. Most addons have zero impact on other players.

It's more like you speed safely at 150mph on your own private race track, put it on video and get issued a driving ban because there's an obscure law that bans you from doing that because they say so and think it'll encourage harassment of city drivers for not going also 150mph. Even though harassment in general is already covered by law.

[Nav_Fae]

A) And this is a big one. A 'crime' should be handled accordingly to it's severity. Not by how many people are shouting and screaming for 'justice'.

"Sorry I was speeding officer. But you should let me off the hook because there is a robbery 3 blocks down you should be focusing on instead."

It is handled by the severity. That is why it is a 10 day ban and not a permanent ban. What you are advocating for is whataboutism. Two wrongs don't make a right and minor wrongs shouldn't be dismissed because stronger ones exist.

[Nav_Fae]

Not a great comparison at all. Speeding down a freeway could get people killed. Most addons have zero impact on other players.

It's more like you speed safely at 150mph on your own private race track, put it on video and get issued a driving ban because there's an obscure law that bans you from doing that because they say so and think it'll encourage harassment of city drivers for not going also 150mph. Even though harassment in general is already covered by law.

It's actually a good comparison you just changed the example

[dspguy]

I'd say SE is forced to take action. People stream the game with brazen usage of third party tools. They have the player name, player's server and evidence that the player is using tools. If SE doesn't ban these players, then why claim to have a TOS at all?

Sure, some people will point out all the bots that are not banned. It is hard to definitively prove bots are bots sometimes. And bots are banned in waves, so it is hard to tell how many they get with each wave. If the bots were streaming their game on twitch, they'd probably be banned immediately, instead of the monthly ban reports we receive.

These people were asking to be banned. How could SE not ban them?