Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line. Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

[baklava151]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

I can see that happening. I'd rather it not and they do more with Darkside instead but it wouldn't surprise me.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

I think there are a few ways to tackle that other than CDs. Looking at SAM back in ShB, iirc Seigan was better than Shinten for its Kenki cost, but had to be procced off Third Eye first. On DRK I think you could have something work where you have a combo finisher that costs MP but adds to the Darkside timer, and it wouldn't conflict with Edge of Shadow assuming Edge is also changed to not give Darkside.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I could possibly get on board with this

[RyuDragnier]

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

[Shurrikhan]

I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

It's vestigial already. How many of us even bother to include our Darkside timer visibly in our UI?

Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

I'm all for added flexibility, but that'd require that this stands in place of LS's full-length, rigid cooldown.

In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I'm not necessarily a fan of just swapping over to a carbon copied mechanic of a different job.

Yes, there's scarcely any way to handle a second combo that hasn't been done before (CDed spender, DoT, self-buff, or unlocked via 2-charge spender), but what makes Reaper particularly apt save for just being the other "edgy" one?

Let's not assume that copying a different job would necessarily produce a better DRK, or even that difference from the existing or its earlier precedents necessarily produces improvement. What specifically do we want from this second combo producible by bankable oGCD spenders? Why is it the best idea ("the answer"), rather than just... a possible option?

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

This, though, should not be an issue. We shouldn't be using TBN where it won't break, and any break gives Edge. The penalty for failure, then, is slightly increased (not that we couldn't also compensate for that somewhat, especially as warranted by the deepened penalty), but proper performance would still cost one nothing so long as we just let the resulting free Edge/Flood buff (call it "Black Blade" or whatnot) stack or give it some further bonus for being spent earlier (such that we wouldn't want to stack it anyways).

[Lyth]

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

The Dark Arts gauge isn't actually necessary. It's just there is to preserve the mechanic terminology for historic reasons. You could just as easily have TBN grant a free Edge/Flood without calling it Dark Arts and creating a gauge for it.

What I'm suggesting is that we leave the TBN proc as it is, except without calling it Dark Arts. Instead, have Edge or Flood generate one stack of Dark Arts on use (regardless of whether its a free cast or not), and have Shadowbringers generate two stacks. Each step of your enhanced combo consumes a Dark Arts stack, in exchange for being higher potency and a bit of HP/MP/blood depending on the step.

...

There are only so many ways that you can implement combo systems. The most common system by far is to have a maintenance buff/debuff, and both of those approaches exist on WAR/PLD respectively, as well as on NIN/DRG. I also think that if you want to introduce a combo this late in job progression it needs to be fairly hard hitting so that it feels like an improvement. I think RPR's take on the system is an incredibly good match because it effectively combos off your oGCD creating a really nice flow, and because it fits DRK's overall resource management theme while actually making use of thee Dark Arts gauge. It doesn't really matter if we've seen something similar on another role before, as there's a ton of back and forth idea sharing between tanks and melee anyways.

[Archwizard]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example).

They're generally streamlined (BotD or Enochian) or replaced (Greased Lighting -> Nadi gauge), yes, but rarely removed wholesale without substitution. If they remove the "Darkside Time" element from DRK, it would likely be to make room for some new element, and both Living Shadow and Blood Gauge come extremely late in the leveling process to be considered sufficient for such purposes on their own, especially compared to every other tank getting some gauge or resource management between 30-35.

We just got over a period where it was awful to play DRK for about 40-odd levels. No active mitigation, no AoE combo, no healing till the late-50s...

They could theoretically reduce the level of Blood Gauge to that range, but combining that with the removal of Darkside would just exacerbate the "DRK = diet WAR" discussion.

That being said, DRK is also the only tank to use MP as a resource at such a low level, so it could be reasonable to consider our 30-ish gauge to be the MP bar, which would still mean room for some active element from MP management which Darkside attempts to facilitate -- beyond oGCDs for oGCDs' sake.

The removal of delirium as a finisher and Power Slash for ennmity really stripped DRK in GCD.
Could have just kept Power Slash as the damage combo and soul eater for healing.

Except that a choice between damage vs healing will always lead to the tank leaning on damage and expecting the healer to pick up the healing. Just look at PLD with Clemency.