On Venat's Role in the Story

[KariTheFox]

From an encounter design standpoint, an Ultimate that uses mechanics inspired by, Amon,Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Endsinger could be a lot of fun.

Though it might be a while before that happens, if SE doesn't decide to skip the SB and ShB ultimates. (I hope they don't do that, I'd love an Omega Weapon Ultimate and I think Hades Ex+Seat of Sacrifice could easily be expanded and combined into a really cool "fight the unsundered" Ultimate.

[EaraGrace]

The difference is that Venat actively inflicted genocide upon the survivors of the Final Days and actively sought to distort the truth surrounding Zodiark as well as striving to rid the world of all memory of the Ancients. I'd say there's a pretty big difference between that and the Sundered taking the time to respect and remember the fallen as well as striving to never give up on those who had given into despair.

To be clear, for it to be an equal situation we'd need the Scions to start slaughtering everyone and snuffing out all memory of their existence the moment they encountered a Garlean or a Thavarian that struggled in the face of despair.

To be comparable the Garleans would have to create a primal so powerful it could answer any prayer and so embedded into the star that destroying it would destroy it as well. Then the Scions would have to make the decision to wipe everyone’s memories in order to force them to not rely on the primal and instead face mortality in order to face a threats that could end existence.

Doesn’t really roll off the tongue as well though.

[Tehmon]

You know what would be really interesting? I know some people here have been forever pushing for a 'What if...?' scenario in which we go back in time to save Amaurot. I think that there's a very simple way for the writers to explore the idea without unnecessarily sidetracking the main story back to a story arc that is done and dusted.

The Defense of Amaurot (Ultimate). Start out with an encounter where you fight Hermes again on top of Ktisis Hyperboreia, except this time, you manage to destroy Kairos in a dps check before it goes off. Cue a fight where you team up with the Convocation against Hermes/Amon, the Endsinger, and an unsundered Zodiark, empowered by dynamis, that's been summoned to temper everyone into submission. You could even have the Convocation summon Hydaelyn this time around, for the laugh.

If we are doing another '' what if '' Ultimate, I will not accept anything else except a similar route they took with Haurchefant surviving, as in something going terribly, horribly wrong in such a timeline. Like you're not going to tell me that Haurchefant surviving would've had such horrible consequences, but the ancients surviving the Final Days would be all sunshine and daisies, nah mate.

Zodiark becoming an issue and Hydaelyn being summoned by the convocation to deal with him would be a fun twist. Alternatively they could go the route of showcasing ancients in a similar predicament as the Plenty, which was said to be a route ancients were possibly on (if Final Days hadn't hit).

[YianKutku]

To be clear, for it to be an equal situation we'd need the Scions to start slaughtering everyone and snuffing out all memory of their existence the moment they encountered a Garlean or a Thavarian that struggled in the face of despair.

We kind of do. The moment someone struggle in the face of despair and turns into a Blasphemy, we wipe out their existence.

Venat did try, quite desperately, to convince the Ancients to stop sacrificing to Zodiark to bring back the Good Old Days. In other words, rebuild, rather than revert. She sundered them because they refused; in your analogy, they fell to despair and became Blasphemies.

[KageTokage]

I was under the impression that the Ancients who were consumed by despair were the ones whose magicks went out of control and started to spawn beasts.

Though in essence, that would basically mean the ones who retained their composure to go through with summoning Zodiark had already overcome despair in their own way by not allowing disaster on a scale unlike anything they had ever experienced to rob them of reason and their will to live.

In that respect, they had already passed one aspect of Hermes' test, though they had "failed" the other aspect of valuing life in that they were prepared to sacrifice other lives to free the souls of those trapped in Zodiark...though that was never really a reasonable expectation in the first place considering that their entire way of life prior had viewed their creations as expendable if worst came to worst; expecting them to suddenly change their views under desperate circumstances even less so.

I can't imagine that if sundered folk were to be placed into similar circumstances where they could sacrifice "lesser" lives like beasts and plants to revive their loved ones lost to the second Final Days that they wouldn't do the same.

[EaraGrace]

I was under the impression that the Ancients who were consumed by despair were the ones whose magicks went out of control and started to spawn beasts.

Though in essence, that would basically mean the ones who retained their composure to go through with summoning Zodiark had already overcome despair in their own way by not allowing disaster on a scale unlike anything they had ever experienced to rob them of reason and their will to live.

In that respect, they had already passed one aspect of Hermes' test, though they had "failed" the other aspect of valuing life in that they were prepared to sacrifice other lives to free the souls of those trapped in Zodiark...though that was never really a reasonable expectation in the first place considering that their entire way of life prior had viewed their creations as expendable if worst came to worst; expecting them to suddenly change their views under desperate circumstances even less so.

Actually, I’d say they failed Hermes test but in a different way. Much of what carried the Ancients through the Final Days seems to be faith in the Convocation (understandable and not really a problem), which in turn became faith in Zodiark. Zodiark is unique as he both represents a way to “solve” the Final Days, and was also a way to go back to how things were. Even before Endwalker you had lines like Elidibus’ description of things, where he says how after stopping the destruction the people “…still cried out in rage and despair.” It’s why I think Venat said right before the Sundering “So let there be no way back. From that temptation I Sunder us.” The pain of losing so much made having a way to get it back would make it an irresistible urge to pretty much anyone. Yet, doing so places conditions on whether it’s worth it to live on, as well as making experiencing despair on Etheirys damn near impossible, both of which were obstackes to defeating Meteion.

I can't imagine that if sundered folk were to be placed into similar circumstances where they could sacrifice "lesser" lives like beasts and plants to revive their loved ones lost to the second Final Days that they wouldn't do the same.

Fully agree. I think that’s why EW actually makes the comparison between Graha/Ironworks and the Ascians more impactful. I’ve argued, and stood by, distinguishing the morals at play in them, but in terms of themes? Very close.

[Tehmon]

I can't imagine that if sundered folk were to be placed into similar circumstances where they could sacrifice "lesser" lives like beasts and plants to revive their loved ones lost to the second Final Days that they wouldn't do the same.

Perhaps, but I think the key ingredient here is the diversity and mortality of the sundered. To rally majority of Eorzea under one ideology is nigh impossible, when there are numerous cultures who differ in their views in death, life and nature. Then there's the issue of what '' lesser '' lives get sacrificed, because animals, beasts and plants are part of the ecosystem that the sundered live off of. Sacrificing a considerable amount of plants and beasts that feed one or more nations would cause hunger, which would cause death (of loved ones), and even more death as nations go to war to ensure they have a source of food to feed their people. More than that, for some nations, those unlike them could be labeled as lesser lives, a la Garleans who think everyone else are savages. Garleans would most likely sacrifice rest of the humankind to bring their people back, so the idea of lesser lives becomes pretty muddled because of how differently different cultures value life.

It's kind of hard to imagine a situation where majority of Eorzea would come together in a case that is as heavily ideological as the sacrificing of '' lesser '' lives for their lost kin. That's not to say there isn't a good amount of sundered who would do it.

[Lyth]

...

I think Emet already addressed this in Shadowbringers. There would be no sacrifices in the first place, and no Zodiark because most people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice themselves just for the will of the collective. And I think that's fair. We just have a different value system.

...

I think if you were doing it as a retelling, it would still arrive back at the same endpoint, just by a different route. You could have Zodiark be summoned to fight the Endsinger, only to get converted to an empowered Blasphemy because there's no protective Celestial currents between them. The Convocation lead by Lahabrea sacrifices itself to become Hydaelyn, who is enthralled by Zodiark, forcing you to fight both at once. The Endsinger merges with both to create the ultimate blasphemy. In a moment of desperation, Emet picks up Hydaelyn's sword to sunder this monstrosity down to something more manageable, shattering the world in the process and forcing you to burn Tank LB3 to survive. Cue final phase. Perhaps AU Emet is the only new survivor, and after the fight he reveals himself to be the Wandering Minstrel before putting on some sunglasses and dancing off the screen.

[Absimiliard]

An already formed Zodiark becoming some kind of monstrously overpowered blasphemy seems rather unlikely due to the completely insane amount of aether he has, but having his power go out of control due to the Ancient souls within him becoming lost in their own despair certainly seems viable. The only problem would be Elidibus' presence, but that could be solved via DPS check. At this point we've seen more than a few primals with at least one phase defined at least partially by mechanics requiring some kind of heart or core to be destroyed. With Elidibus dead, it wouldn't be at all difficult to imagine the Endsinger weaponizing Zodiark against the remaining Ancients and their world. One could even make some add phases out of Zodiark's ability to spontaneously generate life, only in this case that life would warp into blasphemies immediately upon taking shape.

Instead of forcing us to fight Hydaelyn and Zodiark together, mayhaps it would be better if the former were forced to sacrifice herself to weaken the latter to a point where it could conceivably be defeated? Pre-Sundering Zodiark, after all, is pretty much the closest thing to God that world ever saw. Even Sundered, with a significant portion of his being still missing (and Fandaniel not using the limited power at his disposal to its fullest extent), Zodiark still proved (at least in terms of lore) to be a rather dangerous foe. Bearing this in mind, we could have a scenario where Hydaelyn sacrifices herself to both shield the player-characters and either debuff or heavily damage Zodiark. At this point a half-dead Hermes could step in and become the new heart, enabling a weakened Zodiark to resume the fight with actual focus instead of the mad flailings of an entity driven only by instinct.

[KizuyaKatogami]

We kind of do. The moment someone struggle in the face of despair and turns into a Blasphemy, we wipe out their existence.

Venat did try, quite desperately, to convince the Ancients to stop sacrificing to Zodiark to bring back the Good Old Days. In other words, rebuild, rather than revert. She sundered them because they refused; in your analogy, they fell to despair and became Blasphemies.

She didn’t try though. She kept the truth from them. Like idk how that’s so hard to understand. If she truly wanted them to stop, then tell them the truth before it happens. She has the tools, she has the echo. She chose not to.