Hot Take Inside: Remove raidwide buffs (2m) to explore new job design

[ExcogEnjoyer]

You literally didn't read my point at all and you continue to show your ignorance by acting like holding a cooldown was the only point I made about BA/AP optimization, it wasn't, in fact i specifically said other things about its optimization is why it's different then just holding a cooldown. At no point did I speak about parsing, and also news flash, damage optimization is actually fun for many players. Get over yourself. Learn how to actually carry on a discussion like an adult.

My point is that regardless its lame compared to what optimizations bard had in the past, that were both fun to execute and accessible to lesser skilled players.

[Shurrikhan]

Kaiten was removed because of button bloat, and Samurai was one of the jobs many players complained about button bloat with (DRG being another one).

Samurai complained about the absolute waste buttons added in Endwalker, the likes of which were already being merged elsewhere. Most notably: Ogi Namikiri, which can only be used while Ikishoten is on cooldown, being on a separate button from Ikishoten, and Shoha 2 not simply being a fall-off AoE upgrade to Shoha.

Not Kaiten. Kaiten was, in many of those suggestions, specifically given as a non-example. An example of something which, due to being the basis of what allows Kenki to have any thought behind it or value in tracking, should NOT be removed.


This wasn't a result of poor player communication. This wasn't even a Monkey's Paw outcome. The devs literally ignored the (very obvious) suggestions given, reframed the request, moved it to an entirely different ability that had almost nothing in common with the problem specifically pointed out, and then played to their own agenda while feigning that it had any relation with the requests of any more than a couple outlying players (who, by their own admission, barely played and were not interested in SAM).

Hell, the most popular suggestion for Foe Requiem, which was itself often conservatively argued against, was very, very, very simple: Make it an oGCD, and give it a tiny activation cost if needed in compensation. That was it. Not to remove it. Just to make it more flexible and therefore to expand the nuance available to it.

Yes, it is probably better to define solutions than to solely point out problems, but neither was the first time we've given concrete suggestions/alternatives, too, that only to have that, too, blow up in our faces (and still, somehow, be blamed on us instead).


To be clear, again, I agree with you that more consideration, more forethought, more testing of our preferences, is always a good thing. But let's not blame the community for issues like those. Both debacles lie squarely on the dev team, and they're not even unique in that regard.

[Rika007]

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I think you're misunderstanding where im coming from because I've spent the vast majority of my time arguing the raid wide buffs. I agree with you on almost everything you just said. I will not agree that the players are always giving good feedback. I've seen plenty of wasted feedback on these forums that could literally have been boiled down to, "I have to many buttons to press" with very little feedback given. And sadly as its the devs teams job to cater to all players, they have to treat that feedback just like they treat a well written break down of a job that we see here. While I wouldnt even say im putting the blame on the players, I'm acknowledging that they have mountains of feedback to look through, and of the feedback given I would guess based on what we see here, only about 20-30% of it is good constructive feedback.

I'm not absolving the dev team of anything. The blame in the end does fall on their laps entirely, and Yoshi-P knows it. I was one of the bards asking for Foe's requiem to be turned into an oGCD but keep its mp resource management. I then spent two years talking mad crap about how they destroyed bard (and also how they destroyed summoner in shadowbringers as well and their overall terrible work on healers since stormblood).

My issue with the original OP's entire argument is taking away raid wide buffs just spites multiple other good fun parts of the game that many players love, class thematics, team interplay, and player enjoyment of those who like what current raid wide buffers give. And I have seen FAR too many requests here, on twitter, reddit and in the game itself to remove core abilities from rotations with absolutely no thought whatsoever to what replaces them. Far more times then I actually see someone detail the options to replace them.

[Shurrikhan]

I will not agree that the players are always giving good feedback.

I never said they were. I merely pointed out that not every outcome, or even most, can be reasonably laid at the player community's feet. The examples you chose (the loss of Kaiten and any interesting raid utility on Bard), in particular, were cases in which the community had already largely done as you requested.
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We can blame Stormblood DRKs for the removal of DA, for instance, only if we ignore that the majority of complaints did in fact include why they disliked that present DA -- complaints that were not much mitigated by the changes that followed.

We can blame Stormblood MNKs for the removal of an actually interesting Tornado Kick and Monk's mini-burst windows with the release of Shadowbringers, only if we ignore that the complaints largely framed themselves around TK rotations' ping-unfriendliness.

We can blame Stormblood MCHs for the removal of the jobs' every mechanic only if we ignore that their complaints were strictly framed in Overheat being a negligible bonus even if managed perfectly and Wildfire was particularly ping-unfriendly; you may notice that the dev's "solution" to this was to simply remove all mechanics save for one that was even more ping-punishing and, via the new gauges, starting two of its core CDs on cooldown at start of instance and making the job more punished by downtime (i.e., identity now only in the form of punishment).

We can blame Shadowbringer Monks for the removal of Greased Lightning if and only if we ignore their concrete suggestions on how the mechanic might be returned to worthwhile value (such as by giving back a shorter Perfect Balance cooldown, tackle interactions by which to form further mini-burst windows, and returning the ramp-up period to 3 stacks' worth, just each at higher value, rather than taking 4-12 GCDs to reach full damage).

We can blame Shadowbringer's Ninjas for the removal of a rotational Shadowfang (as opposed to 5.1's Sonic Break-lite or 6.x's nothingness) if and only if we ignore the fact they literally asked for nothing more than to give Meisui a rotational use case and to be properly tuned.

We can blame Shadowbringer's Samurai for the diminshed relative value of Meditate if and only if we ignore that "We'd like our capstone skill, Shoha, to be more than just, in effect, a Meditate buff," would have one reasonably expect that the addition would directly get in the way of its original function (especially given that other SAM players laid out exactly how we could avoid that).
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My issue with the original OP's entire argument is taking away raid wide buffs just spites multiple other good fun parts of the game that many players love, class thematics, team interplay, and player enjoyment of those who like what current raid wide buffers give.

And I will agree with you on that, to a degree. Honestly, I don't think raid buffs offer anything interesting in themselves, only through the exact gameplay implications they provide for oneself and others; as such, I'm fully open to concrete ideas to revise them, or even replace them, in the interest of, well, more interesting gameplay for those affected. But I understand your concerns regarding when people seem to take out the sledgehammer before even having any idea when or how they'll replace the floor.

Even complaints help in these first steps though, and from the start, the idea to consider what space could be made by removing (the duller) raid buffs does imply a further, corequisite step: We would naturally, then, consider what could or should replace them.

Far more times then I actually see someone detail the options to replace them.

And I will second you on every reminder that the next step, an approach towards a replacement for (or understanding of the results of) any removal, is required for us to have any idea whether that removal would truly be a good thing.

I just don't think that's been necessarily the case here. Details are hard, and this is only up to a 5th page.

Give it some time, as we're in no rush (except as needed to retain momentum, and thereby interest, in any of these thought experiments). Given the devs neglect of even the most repeated suggestions for said replacements, if CMs swing by at all to report on what they see here, we needn't worry about their being swayed by more complaints than solutions being initially visible at a glance; whatever they fine will doubtless be deliberately cherrypicked, anyways, for what would best suit whatever plans that part of the devs already have in motion or can most easily both code and sell off as being "responsive".

Now take my like, please, for saying very reasonable things even where people might not want to hear them but probably ought to. And I apologize if I came off as unnecessarily argumentative. I clearly have my own diatribes I needed to get out.

[Shurrikhan]

Also do we really need Wind Bite, Caustic Bite and Iron Jaws? Especially when we cant even double proc any more.

I want to touch on this briefly:

"Need" is a sufficient, but not necessary, reason to keep an ability.


Kenki, as a system, needed Kaiten for it to make sense, and was fleshed out by varied Kenki costs in Seigan, Kaiten, Shinten/Kyuten, and Guren/Senei. Whether Samurai needs Kenki at all, though, is a largely useless question. Better would be to ask whether a system like Kenki allows certain functions that can make SAM more fun.

Old Repertoire needed our DoTs. It no longer does. But could DoTs --as soft-CDs with multiple charges for each enemy, up to the point straight AoE becomes more worthwhile-- allow for certain functions that could make Bard more fun? I don't think we have to imagine particularly hard to arrive at useful examples.


Personally, I don't mind Repertoire being separate from DoTs, though I would like a similar ability for funnel damage from medium target counts, much like what DoTs previously provided.

Perhaps even before diving deep into adjacent or obviously fitting functionalities that DoTs could take up, though, we ought to open thing up, however:

What's something cool you might want an Archer/Bard Wind and Poison DoT, each, to do? No limits. You can change the direct potency, potency per tick, and duration however you wish (leaving overall kit balance for later). You can add any further effect you wish. Just have at it.

Are there really no function ideas that come to mind for either that couldn't take advantage of being a DoT (again, essentially, a soft CD that gains charges with target count, until ~4+ targets)?

[ExcogEnjoyer]

If I wanted to give a full on rework for Bard, I would suggest thus:

• Reduce the Dots from down to just Stormbite.

There are a few reasons for this, mainly that Square isn't going to let class's have their damage scale with dots anymore, its just not happening. And secondly, we just like, don't need 3 buttons to maintain what is essentially 1 single dot. Thirdly, I like the Stormbite animation, and want to see more of it.

• Delete Battle Voice and replace it with Foe Requiem.

Battle Voice, as it is, is incredibly boring to utilize, being little more than something you fire off every 2 minutes in 99% of circumstances. Replacing it with Foe Requiem returns some of that classic Bard flavour while giving Bard a unique way to provide damage support. If you don't like how Foe Requiem had a cast time? My response to that is thus: "Pound sand, kick rocks, fly a kite and take a hike. You don't understand the appeal of bard in the slightest and I would rather you took interest in a different job."

• Rework Radiant Finale and Bard's 3 Rotational Songs

Radiant Finale, like Battle Voice is somewhat void of interesting mechanical depth in its current form, and I propose it be reworked into a full Utility spell rather than its lackluster Damage utility spell. Instead of Codas providing an increase in effect of Radiant Finale, they provide different effects that are sent out to the team upon use. Wanderer's Minuet provides a Health regen effect, Army's Paeon provides flat damage mitigation and Mage's Ballad provides an MP refresh effect. The cooldown would be lowered to 60s and lasts for the same 15 seconds it already does.
Next up is reworking the rotational songs. They are extremely rigid in their use, with a pre-prescribed rotation that cannot be deviated from do to their heavily punishing cooldowns. While having a job that punishes you for mistakes isn't bad, per say, I think it does more harm than good in Bard's case. My proposition to lower each song's cooldown to 80 seconds but on the caveat that you are locked out of playing the same song again without playing another one. The second change, would be to attempt to make all 3 songs overall potential potencies be with roughly 100 potency of each other, so bard can feely choose which one they want to perform at any given time.

[RaevusAstra]

You're missing a pretty big problem with this though. Many players would outright quit their jobs if you do this. Do you actually think Dancers would keep playing Dancer if you just outright removed the party buffing support of Technical step? Or Bards would stay Bards if you removed the songs, Battle Voice and Radiant Finale? You would keep a few hardcore diehards sure, but the allure of these jobs is their support kits. All you have to do is look at Shadowbringers Bard and all the players who pitched a massive fit over the loss of Foe's Requiem and Refresh. It's the identity of the job. You are looking to create rotational complexity at the cost of cutting out years of job identity that many players have fell in love with. It would piss off far more players then it would actually make happy. Again not even touching that players of other jobs who aren't that support oriented but still have raid buffs would also not be happy either...

I'm not sure if you read what I had said.

Support jobs are support jobs without raidbuffs. EVERY DPS except SAM and BLM have at least one 2m raidbuff. That doesn't make DNC and BRD special at all. What does make support jobs special (and I specifically mentioned abilities like Dragon Sight and Dance Partner) is the fact that they have buffs that can be assigned to certain party members and that in a 2m burst game, the decision making is boring: always put it on the person with the most adps in your party. If timers and buffs were shifted around where not everyone has a 2m burst and they don't have to conform to the 2m raidbuff window, these buffs have more interactivity, as you would need to shift them around to different people depending on the timing of the fight, which makes being a support MUCH more interesting than just saying "the SAM always gets these buffs and everyone else gets the raidbuffs".

[RaevusAstra]

*SAM, BRD, and MCH.

[RaevusAstra]

Finally caught up to everything and... it's really sad how the majority of these threads end up.

Just threw around a discussion idea that might make gameplay changes that are different from the norm, but everybody's got the way they think the game should be or their memories of the "golden age" of combat in XIV. Not even saying what I'm thinking is completely right, and maybe a non 2m/raidbuff meta might be a nightmare to balance more than I think, but I just like the idea of a simple way to shake up gameplay, by moving away from a burst @2m meta and changing the cooldowns of already existing skills to make rotations shorter or longer (without going back to SHB buff design).

Oh well.