On Venat's Role in the Story

[EaraGrace]

I am just loving the fact that folks are now just saying “make the story for me.” I would’ve been laughed at for saying something similar in ShB when the everyone was acting like Hydaelyn was gonna turn out evil. Just honestly incredible.

[redheadturk]

I am just loving the fact that folks are now just saying “make the story for me.” I would’ve been laughed at for saying something similar in ShB when the everyone was acting like Hydaelyn was gonna turn out evil. Just honestly incredible.

You act like a simple Tales Of story is such a hugggggge imposition

[KizuyaKatogami]

Really? Even if you never got to see or interact with it in any way? Even if it's never brought up again, or has any narrative significance.

I don't know. If I was unsatisfied with a story, I don't think being told "oh but everything is fine in another timeline, but we won't be exploring that one" would sit well with me at all.

But that’s specifically what they did with the Ironworks story. They couldn’t deal with killing any of those characters off so they made it a branching timeline where they survive. They could have killed them all and the only thing that would change is Graha’s entire plot would be far more grey than it is now.

[CrownySuccubus]

There is debate about what exactly nirvana means or entails and the presentation of the Buddha as being a god-being one with the universe in Journey to the West is just one interpretation, but I was referring to the concept of parinirvana, or nirvana after death more specifically.

Buddha being a god-being is one of the most common and accepted versions of the belief system. Sure, Buddhism is diverse enough to have many different interpretations of what Buddhahood is, or what nirvana is, but almost EVERY Buddhist would scoff at your implication that Nirvana is something to be overcome or negated. "There is debate" is being used as a weasel word here to imply that Buddhists' belief in Nirvana as an ultimate goal has no wide consensus, when it very surely does.

You are also using the term parinirvana incorrectly. Parinirvana indeed means "nirvana after death", but it likewise does NOT mean oblivion. The difference between nirvana and parinirvana is basically the same as "going to heaven" and "going to heaven after you die". It's literally the same thing -- the latter simply describes that death as a way to get there.

But, if you want to run with the JttW ideal of the Buddha as a perfect, universal entity free of weakness and suffering - Obviously Endwalker rejects the entire concept of such a being. The idea of perfection, the idea of freedom from suffering as a virtue, even the idea of an infinite universe, Endwalker basically says that all of these ideals are either bad or wrong or not true.

No, what it says is that these ideas, are impossible within life. The entire point to Nirvana and Buddhism is that it is a state beyond life.

I also don't think the idea of the aetherial sea is equitable with the idea of nirvana, not in the least because it's only a pit-stop on the path to further reincarnation.

The Aetherial Sea is presented as part of a person's soul becoming one with the planet, and while other parts of it become integrated into a new consciousness. Exactly how this works is ultimately left nebulous, but it fits within Zen Buddhism's belief that there are multiple parts of the soul, including parts which remain within nature and recycle into the wheel of life and death.

And bewildered and divided they would perish. Ancient society had never faced a crisis of any sort like this, especially not one of mortal threat. They’re reaction was clearly panic and disarray.

That's not one person's decision to make. I've said this before, but if someone's life choices would result in them dying at 40 instead of 80, then it's still their right to choose. Not have someone else choose for them.

And besides, what you're saying is ALSO true for the Sundered. The only reason they survived is because they had 12,000 years of help from Hydaelyn, while the Ancients had NONE.

And the point I would make is you only need enough people to react in a way that would endanger everyone to justify remaining quiet.

Irrelevant, because it never happened aside from Venat's guesswork.

And you know what, I disagree with that person entirely. The game doesn’t say “oh the strong will live and that’s good.” It says “all will face suffering, despair and death, and there’s no promise we will overcome. This is a hard existence, but each an everyone of us, no matter their temperament, no matter if theyre brave or courageous or inherently strong willed, they can all find the strength to continue. Can find joy and light in the darkness.”

Yes, it does. The game literally says that those "too weak" to deal with suffering are doomed. That is the entire POINT to Venat's sundering. That is the entire POINT to Venat choosing the Scions to be the ones to fight Meteion. She literally TELLS you this in person, right to your face.

That is literally social darwinism.

To me that’s beautiful. But that’s ultimately my interpretation, so let’s I think recognize that different people will interpret differently and that’s actually a good thing.

No one said you couldn't.

You guys are the ones here telling others are wrong for having a more negative interpretation.

[EaraGrace]

You act like a simple Tales Of story is such a hugggggge imposition

I’m just saying this is a hilarious thread.

Now I wanna start making demands!

Where’s my tales story showing the calamity of lightning where humans starved and died to horrific diseases as they huddled in caves, to scared to walk outside for fear of being struck by lightning all the while Emet talks about how feeble they are?

Where’s the story of about the young Amdapor child who drowns in the calamity of water while the Ascians stand back and cackles at the wretches?

[KizuyaKatogami]

I am just loving the fact that folks are now just saying “make the story for me.” I would’ve been laughed at for saying something similar in ShB when the everyone was acting like Hydaelyn was gonna turn out evil. Just honestly incredible.

You realize that someone asked it. We’re not just saying it out of the blue. Please read next time thank you.

[Lauront]

I’m just saying this is a hilarious thread.

Now I wanna start making demands!

Where’s my tales story showing the calamity of lightning where humans starved and died to horrific diseases as they huddled in caves, to scared to walk outside for fear of being struck by lightning all the while Emet talks about how feeble they are?

Where’s the story of about the young Amdapor child who drowns in the calamity of water while the Ascians stand back and cackles at the wretches?

You go and do that then. Not like they've not shown 1) the Void in all its glory 2) the 7UC unfolding, with Lahabrea cackling about it no less or 3) the First in its prelude to a Rejoining, but if you want more, go and ask for it. And as a bonus, I won't even entertain the thought that you're ridiculous for lashing out over some posters here answering a question posed by Kari.

[KariTheFox]

But that’s specifically what they did with the Ironworks story. They couldn’t deal with killing any of those characters off so they made it a branching timeline where they survive. They could have killed them all and the only thing that would change is Graha’s entire plot would be far more grey than it is now.

Well, I always thought the Ironworks story was more a resolution to Midgardsomr's story, it was satisfying to learn that even though he sleeps, he might eventually wake up and adopt the people of Ethyris as his children and help them rebuild. The eosteric question about whether or not people still existed after the timeline branched was a more academic one to me.

I also don't think it makes G'raha's actions any less ambiguous. After all, he has no idea what happened after he left his original timeline, for all he knows, they could have blipped out of existance as soon as the Crystal Tower vanished.

Similary, if you think Venat is guilty of genocide, murder, and all those other things, a second timeline doesn't undo that. After all, she still did the sundering in the timeline we know.

Like - really, what's the point? To know that some fictional characters are "okay" in another made up timeline? It feels so hollow. Like with Midgardsomr, I would want any alternative timeline story to have a point that goes a little further than 'and then Emet-Selch sipped tea and thought about how everything was going to be great forever'.

[Skyborne]

and then Emet-Selch sipped tea and thought about how everything was going to be great forever

Sounds great to me. The point of these stories is also enjoyment, which also seems to be the point of your strange circus act.

[Theodric]

I am just loving the fact that folks are now just saying “make the story for me.” I would’ve been laughed at for saying something similar in ShB when the everyone was acting like Hydaelyn was gonna turn out evil. Just honestly incredible.

People are free to like or dislike whichever characters they so wish and discuss whichever aspects of the story they so desire, including speculation.

I can't consider wading through the latest round of 'wHy DoN't YoU lIkE hEr' appeals to me. Especially when it usually results in strangely personal insults, attempts to rewrite this board's historical harassment towards anyone who spoke up in favour of the antagonists and the inevitable threats to leave a thread only to return less than a day later to post anew.