Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

[Brinne]

Emet also struggled with the weight of his chosen course every day, and still harbored feelings of hope for the Sundered deep within. Listen to his emotional outburst in 5.0, you want to tell me he never even attempted to give them a chance?

Even Yoshida has mentioned, more than once, that Emet's intentions were "pure" and he truly tried to believe in the Sundered again and again, only to be betrayed by them again and again.

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I'm specifically referencing a Japanese stream in January 2020 where he was a guest and said about Emet-Selch: "You could call him pure-hearted, perhaps... he tried to believe in them as much as he could, but was betrayed countless times, so as a result, he gave up. But he thought [because of Azem/WoL] 'this time, just maybe...' - Emet-Selch held some of those feelings in his heart, as well." (Once again, if someone better than me in Japanese wants to clarify/correct, please do!) He basically repeated the "he tried to believe in them but was betrayed over and over" line in that MogStation talk a while back, when explaining the difference between the Emet we see in Elpis and the one in Shadowbringers.

[Lauront]

Even Yoshida has mentioned, more than once, that Emet's intentions were "pure" and he truly tried to believe in the Sundered again and again, only to be betrayed by them again and again.

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I'm specifically referencing a Japanese stream in January 2020 where he was a guest and said about Emet-Selch: "You could call him pure-hearted, perhaps... he tried to believe in them as much as he could, but was betrayed countless times, so as a result, he gave up. But he thought [because of Azem/WoL] 'this time, just maybe...' - Emet-Selch held some of those feelings in his heart, as well." (Once again, if someone better than me in Japanese wants to clarify/correct, please do!) He basically repeated the "he tried to believe in them but was betrayed over and over" line in that MogStation talk a while back, when explaining the difference between the Emet we see in Elpis and the one in Shadowbringers.

Interesting find, thanks for posting it. It's consistent with the way Yoshi describes things here.

[EaraGrace]

Emet also struggled with the weight of his chosen course every day, and still harbored feelings of hope for the Sundered deep within. Listen to his emotional outburst in 5.0, you want to tell me he never even attempted to give them a chance?

What does that chance look like? Like yeah he did give us a chance, ShB is all about that. Does it only matter that he gave a chance and not whether his “test” was actually fair or reasonable?

Of course even the Ancients have their breaking points. I'm not trying to imply that an individual among them is above the failings of a Sundered person, look no further than Hermes for proof of that. Emet is among those who've been broken as well. I mean that for a Sundered person, that bar is far far lower, and as a society, the Sundered very evidently are far more vulnerable to this than the Unsundered were. That isn't really disputable; not even the game questions their selflessness (Not Alphinaud, nor the Minstrel) in choosing to condemn themselves to what they know is an awful fate for the sake of those that they love.

They are no more or less vulnerable, they’re the same. The only difference is one lacks immortality and the ability to create on a whim. And that selflessness was obviously limited, given they seemed more than willing to condemn others to that fate in order to bring their friends and “paradise” back.

However your subjective feelings on the matter of whether it was truly a solution or not, Emet was 100% correct when he said the Sundered would not be capable of making a sacrifice of 50% of their number, for the sake of the other half.

We disagree then. Did you poll the Sundered world? Emet himself says not a minute later that in every age, in every fight there’s always hero’s coming forth. And unlike the Ancients they get no promise of salvation, no guarantee of survival.

Let me ask you this. We know Hydaelyn was able to fight against Zodiark and His unbelievable strength due to the way She was designed. Namely Her ability to Sunder, and the fact that the souls willingly sacrificed for Her gave all of themselves to Her creation. If the Ancients sacrifice was truly so selfless, truly so unconcerned with their own benefit, then why didn’t they do similarly when creating Zodiark? If Hydaelyn could match His strength with a far lesser sacrifice, it’s only logical to conclude that so many lives wouldn’t have needed to be sacrificed if they were willing to give all of their might to His creation. So why preserve them at all?

There will always be good people among the Sundered of course, the Ironworks and the Scions and such, but it doesn't erase the very present existence of maliciousness that didn't exist in nearly that kind of scope in the Unsundered world. The success of their society and the content of their character is quite demonstrably shown.

It didn’t exist because the Unsundered never had to fight for their lives until the Final Days, and we all know what they became willing to do after that. Wanting for naught and having nothing denied has a way of preventing that. And not to mention the claim the Ancient world was free of sin is an unproven statement. Venat herself points out that every paradise has its shadows, do you truly think Amaurot lacked its?

Even Yoshida has mentioned, more than once, that Emet's intentions were "pure" and he truly tried to believe in the Sundered again and again, only to be betrayed by them again and again.

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I'm specifically referencing a Japanese stream in January 2020 where he was a guest and said about Emet-Selch: "You could call him pure-hearted, perhaps... he tried to believe in them as much as he could, but was betrayed countless times, so as a result, he gave up. But he thought [because of Azem/WoL] 'this time, just maybe...' - Emet-Selch held some of those feelings in his heart, as well." (Once again, if someone better than me in Japanese wants to clarify/correct, please do!) He basically repeated the "he tried to believe in them but was betrayed over and over" line in that MogStation talk a while back, when explaining the difference between the Emet we see in Elpis and the one in Shadowbringers.

That actual statement is a little less clear cut than what was describe tbf

[Brinne]

Much like was pointed out about the "look, Venat only committed planetary genocide once" line, my instinctive reaction to "look, if the Ancients were really so selfless, they wouldn't have just given their lives, they would have enthusiastically let their souls be destroyed forever!" is welp, This Sure Is Some Discussion.

[EaraGrace]

Much like was pointed out about the "look, Venat only committed planetary genocide once" line, my instinctive reaction to "look, if the Ancients were really so selfless, they wouldn't have just given their lives, they would have enthusiastically let their souls be destroyed forever!" is welp, This Sure Is Some Discussion.

How many of their friends wouldn’t need sacrificing if they did so is my question. If all they truly wished for was to see the star saved and they were willing to give everything, then why didn’t they? I’m not denying the good in what they did do, I’m simply asking people to consider it and ponder if sacrifice really didn’t have conditions. If that upsets you then ignore it but it’s something I’d like to see answered.

[tokinokanatae]

Does it only matter that he gave a chance and not whether his “test” was actually fair or reasonable?

At least Emet-Selch outlines his expectations for his test from the beginning, unlike other Ancients!

[EaraGrace]

At least Emet-Selch outlines his expectations for his test from the beginning, unlike other Ancients!

Right like the time he told his son about how he was basing humanity’s worth on his survival? Or the time he kept changing the rules of his test so he didn’t have ti accept defeat at the end of ShB? I wonder how many of the “miserable wretches” knew about his judgements?

[Iscah]

[outsmarting Ascians]

While it didn't lead to an Ascian's demise, one more big outsmarting was Urianger carrying out his scheme to get the Warriors of Darkness and Light together, all the while convincing Elidibus that he was on his side.

time travel was based on Alexander which was made in part because of an ascian so credits due on that but the physical shard crossing was pure sundered.

I think Ascian involvement in those events is a bit distant to credit them in the invention of time travel itself. All Travanchet did was give Mide an object that could create a primal, and in the end it wasn't even Mide who summoned it. (I don't believe the horn was actually accounted for between the initial summoning-interrupted-by-future-Alexander and it becoming the primal's core? Perhaps it simply dropped into the river.)

Alexander was ultimately summoned by the Illuminati and I think the weird time loop business meant they already expected it to be capable of time travel? Either that or it came out of their wishes rather than anyone's actual technological ability.

From there, it was Cid who had to develop a theory of time travel based on Alexander, with Omega tech being brought in later to allow safe traversal of the rift.

This strikes me as a silly assertion to debate over, because the unsundered are now extinct and humanity is still progressing.

To be fair, the ancients being extinct has little to do with their relative intelligence levels.

Though modern humans are intelligent enough, so what would "fourteen times as intelligent" even look like?

[SpectrePhantasia]

We disagree then. Did you poll the Sundered world? Emet himself says not a minute later that in every age, in every fight there’s always hero’s coming forth. And unlike the Ancients they get no promise of salvation, no guarantee of survival.

In that case, why didn't Alphinaud simply ask Emet to cite his sources instead of clenching his teeth? I can tell you why, because asserting that such a thing would be possible for the Sundered would be pointless; it could not happen, and he knows it. Loathe though I'm sure it is to trust in Emet, the fact remains that we have outside confirmation he genuinely wanted to see the Sundered succeed, and lived a great many lives among them. A civilization of people who kill for far baser reasons with greater prejudices simply would not allow that kind of sacrifice to ever cleanly be decided the way it was in the Ancient society; and I'm not even saying this as any sort of pessimist. Think about such a prospect happening in our world, it would never be done! The squabbling would go on unto eternity until whatever the threat was would kill us.

And that's just it; 'heroes' do not encompass the majority of the world; they are but a very prominent minority. Though they are beacons of potential, they do not by any means account for the whole. They are heroes because they are exceptional.

The burden of proof is really not on me here. In the Sundered society we see people hurt and kill others for survival, for food, personal gain, for ideals, and sometimes just to hurt people, the same way it is in this world of ours. It does not take much for violence to appear. Whereas with the Ancients, we never hear of anything even approaching the sort occurring, which is consistent with Emet-selch's portrayal of the place (And before you say Pandaemonium, we have no idea so best just to save it for later). Why do you think it is that, as far as we saw, they never had to fight for their lives? It's because they did not sow conflict with one another, the way Sundered societies do. The preservation of that so-called paradise is hinged upon the Ancients being this way. The Ascians had to have their entire world torn apart before their very eyes before they resorted to similar.

I just do not know how to discuss this with someone who is on that many layers of optimism. I just, disagree I guess? It's not even really approachable for me. I do want to engage with you sincerely about this, but I think we're just on completely different wavelengths here.

[Kozh]

Does it only matter that he gave a chance and not whether his “test” was actually fair or reasonable?

Like two certain Ancients?

Did you poll the Sundered world?

We already see the results from 8UC timeline, where people fights each other instead of uniting. And no, the Ironworks doesn't count because they're very far from 50% of the population. Even some of their members left after a while.

If the Ancients sacrifice was truly so selfless, truly so unconcerned with their own benefit, then why didn’t they do similarly when creating Zodiark?

Because hydaelyn is created specifically to combat zodiark?? Meanwhile zodiark isn't create to fight/kill, but to save the star. He's more for general purposes. Another thing you might missed, venat's followers souls were used because she insisted on fighting zodiark and then to sustain her for 12k years. If she didn't need to fight at all, all of those souls would be fine, just like the souls inside zodiark.

That actual statement is a little less clear cut than what was describe tbf

Yeah sure

Right like the time he told his son about how he was basing humanity’s worth on his survival? Or the time he kept changing the rules of his test so he didn’t have ti accept defeat at the end of ShB? I wonder how many of the “miserable wretches” knew about his judgements?

You write this unironically while still defending venat's decisions. Wao.

And how emet does changing rules because he doesn't to accept defeat? If anything l, he's the one who keep giving the scions a chance. By his first rule (the WoL able to contain the light), we already failed at Mt. Gulg. Then in Amaurot, when alphinaud challenged him, he gave us another chance.