Hot Take Inside: Remove raidwide buffs (2m) to explore new job design

[Rika007]

Battle Voice and Radiant Finale are 2 of the most boring buff skills in the game, Battle Voice and Radiant Finale have 0 interaction with the rest of the kit, indistinguishable from other raid buffs like Searing Light or Battle Litany. And before you protest, no, Minstrel's Codas are not "interaction" they're vestigial organs to a functionality that square deleted from the game before we could even get to play with it. If you deleted BV and RF from the game and replaced them with Foe Requiem, Bard would be a more fun class to play almost instantly.

You're also missing a rather large part of the story in 5.X. When Foe Requiem got carved out of Bard's kit, it wasn't a simple "Ok we're taking this and giving you something else similar because we think Foe Requiem is a bit weird and we want to standardize it a bit." It was "We're taking this skill that was core to Bard's identity through ARR, HW and SB and replacing it with FUCKING NOTHING."

Sorry but I disagree, I do feel it does interact with the kit, and I do like the coda system. Is it a pale imitation/far cry of the interactivity of the Refresh/Foe's Requiem mini game we played during Stormblood Bard? Of course it is. But after Shadowbringers I've learned how important even a single action can matter to class fantasy. It might be more shallow, but it feels impactful, and feels supportive overall due to the layering of three party wide buffs at once (WM, Finale, and BV all within a few seconds).

Would I take back Foe's Requiem/Refresh in an instant over it? Yes. But I'm operating under the idea that would never be an option. Which since that is most likely the case, they better never touch BV and Finale. I dropped Bard in Shadowbringers because of the loss of FR, and I would drop it again if I lost our raid wide buffs again. I don't care if they supplanted them with some individual buffing mechanic. I like being a raid wide buff class. That's fun to me. Even if it's just a single button press, I like calling out buff times to my static, I like seeing the animation of BV and Finale go off, I like seeing all the buff icons pop up on my party, and I like watching the damage numbers skyrocket across the group in those moments. It's a good gaming feeling. And I feel very confident based on the history of this game I'm not the only one who feels that way. OP's idea would remove all of that. Screw that.

[ExcogEnjoyer]

Sorry but I disagree, I do feel it does interact with the kit, and I do like the coda system. Is it a pale imitation/far cry of the interactivity of the Refresh/Foe's Requiem mini game we played during Stormblood Bard? Of course it is. But after Shadowbringers I've learned how important even a single action can matter to class fantasy. It might be more shallow, but it feels impactful, and feels supportive overall due to the layering of three party wide buffs at once (WM, Finale, and BV all within a few seconds).

Battle Voice doesn't interact with the kit at all, full stop. You just press the button and off it goes. What you "feel" runs directly counter to how the skill actually functions. And for me, having a button that is the exact same as every other fire and forget raid buff in the game as the original party buff class is simply not enough. I would rather have no battle voice than a pointless, shitty battle voice.
Codas are not a system, by even the bare minimum of definitions. Unless you direly fuck up your rotation where you somehow don't press a Song button for 2 whole minutes, Radiant Finale functions almost exactly like Battle Voice, and again, there is no interaction with how the kit functions.

I dropped Bard in Shadowbringers because of the loss of FR, and I would drop it again if I lost our raid wide buffs again. I don't care if they supplanted them with some individual buffing mechanic. I like being a raid wide buff class. That's fun to me.

Well good thing you can play RPR, SMN, RDM, SCH, AST, DNC, MNK, DRG, and NIN, because they all accomplish what Bard does, in a more interesting fashion with skills that play into their individual identities far better. Than Battle Voice does for bard.

[Shurrikhan]

Unless you direly fuck up your rotation where you somehow don't press a Song button for 2 whole minutes, Radiant Finale functions almost exactly like Battle Voice, and again, there is no interaction with how the kit functions.

Any given song would only need to be 12-20 seconds late for RF to become desynced, no?

More importantly, though, that is true for the present song design. The present song design, too, though, is shit. Its rotation(s) and use are inflexible, basically predetermined, and generally dull compared to what it could be if more flexibly leverageable. Battle Voice v2 seems fundamentally designed to be fire-and-forget. Radiant Finale and a possible (re)turn to something like the earlier Battle Voice interactions, though, could be quite interesting if the song system itself were revised.

[ExcogEnjoyer]

Any given song would only need to be 12-20 seconds late for RF to become desynced, no?

Fair enough, I suppose.

More importantly, though, that is true for the present song design. The present song design, too, though, is shit. Its rotation(s) and use are inflexible, basically predetermined, and generally dull compared to what it could be if more flexibly leverageable. Battle Voice v2 seems fundamentally designed to be fire-and-forget. Radiant Finale and a possible (re)turn to something like the earlier Battle Voice interactions, though, could be quite interesting, though, if the song system itself were revised.

And that's my main sticking point really. For a game that was praised for its really well designed MMO kits, where every single skill was valuable and important, its sad to see so many jobs in the same state as bard; a mess with a smattering of "thematic" skills that don't interact with each other at all. Like for instance imagine if instead of having a gauge, Apex Arrow was on a 60 second internal cooldown, like how Sonic Break works? What would really change for the job?

[Rika007]

snip

Full stop, I disagree with you entirely and in every single way possible (and one i was talking about Finale working with the kit and coda's, not Battle Voice). Go join all the other players who just clamor for Bard to be a sad WoW Hunter imitation and want the Music identity stripped from the job. It's takes like yours that got them to remove Foe's Requiem and the fun boosting powers of ARR Battle voice, because they weren't perfect.

The mechanic of Bards support utility is in the full kit, using them all together. No other job brings three different raid wide offensive buffs at once. Complain all you want about fire and forget buffs on cooldowns and how you would rather they be removed, that sounds exactly like all the people who complain about how we can just consolidate a few other gcd buttons into morphing actions, aka just make jobs more one button monotonous spams. Lets just change burst into Refulgent while we are at it. Lets just remove the songs entirely and merge blood letter and pitch perfect since they are in the end functionally the same, oGCD's you need to press before they overcap from a repertoire proc.

Unless they have a sick new ability to replace battle voice that brings the interplay you so desperately want, I'd rather keep it. It's another button to press. Another cooldown to manage. Another piece of an opener I need to keep in mind. Another cooldown that I need to gather based on fight design if I should delay or not.

And that's my main sticking point really. For a game that was praised for its really well designed MMO kits, where every single skill was valuable and important, its sad to see so many jobs in the same state as bard; a mess with a smattering of "thematic" skills that don't interact with each other at all. Like for instance imagine if instead of having a gauge, Apex Arrow was on a 60 second internal cooldown, like how Sonic Break works? What would really change for the job?

No it would not because there is some actual skill interpretation that goes into current Apex Arrow's usage based on fight timings. Go look up any current savage Bard guide, you will see there are min max timings on Apex Arrow/Blasting Arrow based on if your comp and static choose to delay burst windows, not just on the 2 minute usage, but on the odd 1 minute usage as well. There is min maxing options in both phases of 4s, and 2s in 3s. It does not function like a basic 60 second cooldown, where you just decide if you should delay or not, you do have to actually sometimes choose if it has to be used early on in your 60 cycle to insure full power in your 120 cycle.

Also as Shurrikhan just said, you don't need to nearly un desync that long to screw up your Radiant Finale timings. I will also echo what many Bards say that the song timings are far bigger of an issue then most Bard players are complaining about. More flexible song timings would actually lead to some possible more flexible Coda useage. The Coda's themselved are 100% a mechanic that could be flexed, they are just currently at the mercy of Bard's biggest issue, it's inflexible song rotation.

Retro edit: If I sound slightly hostile, its not my intention, but I'm tired of hearing so many players talk about removing things from kits they don't like, but never talk about what they want to see added in replacement of that. It's what lost us Foe's Requiem (Players complained about the janky cast time and how awkward it felt, and how theyd rather see the move replaced, but they never talk about what they want to see added on in it's replacement). It's what gave us this current summoner (calls to remove dots, pets, aetherflow, etc, summoner opinions were everywhere on what needed to be removed, but very few people talked about what should be added outside of 'Make it feel more like a Summoner'). It's what just lost Samurai's Kaiten.

At this point I'm just gonna disagree with the idea that the Dev's removing or consolidating anything that isn't GCD healing abilities on the healers, on principal alone. These jobs do not need anymore pruning. For the love of god most need more. Anything we discuss about being removed needs to have an idea for replacement. We've already seen how the dev team does if they have an excuse to remove an ability. They hack without a second thought.

[ExcogEnjoyer]

Go join all the other players who just clamor for Bard to be a sad WoW Hunter imitation and want the Music identity stripped from the job. It's takes like yours that got them to remove Foe's Requiem and the fun boosting powers of ARR Battle voice, because they weren't perfect.

Bard ALREADY is a sad WoW hunter clone, and it was one in ARR too. It just had actual bard mechanics and actual utility to make up for that. And FWIW, people didn't ask for bard to get its knees broken in 5.0, that was square enix deciding to punish bard for taking advantage of a meta it had no hand in creating.

The mechanic of Bards support utility is in the full kit, using them all together. No other job brings three different raid wide offensive buffs at once. Complain all you want about fire and forget buffs on cooldowns and how you would rather they be removed, that sounds exactly like all the people who complain about how we can just consolidate a few other gcd buttons into morphing actions, aka just make jobs more one button monotonous spams. Lets just change burst into Refulgent while we are at it. Lets just remove the songs entirely and merge blood letter and pitch perfect since they are in the end functionally the same, oGCD's you need to press before they overcap from a repertoire proc.

Relax with the histrionics. Are you really trying to say that the 2% Crit buff that most players dont even notice without a 3rd party tool is truly integral to Bard's identity? A buff that Bard didnt even have until it was HOTFIXED in? Bard went from being the team battery, the parameter helper, with MP and TP refresh to having the same damn utility of every other class in the game. What a joke.

No it would not because there is some actual skill interpretation that goes into current Apex Arrow's usage based on fight timings. Go look up any current savage Bard guide, you will see there are min max timings on Apex Arrow/Blasting Arrow based on if your comp and static choose to delay burst windows, not just on the 2 minute usage, but on the odd 1 minute usage as well. There is min maxing options in both phases of 4s, and 2s in 3s. It does not function like a basic 60 second cooldown, where you just decide if you should delay or not, you do have to actually sometimes choose if it has to be used early on in your 60 cycle to insure full power in your 120 cycle.

Oh boy more mirco-optimizations that only apply to people who are doing fflog runs in a static and don't matter at all for 99% of content. Sick I love it. The real hard hitter of holding a cooldown for 10s during a mechanic. Real fun stuff we get to do. Honestly I can't imagine this class getting any worse, I don't even care anymore. Its so hollowed out of interesting mechanics and flavor, its playerbase left to fight over scraps of the utility it once had.

[ExcogEnjoyer]

I sound slightly hostile, its not my intention, but I'm tired of hearing so many players talk about removing things from kits they don't like, but never talk about what they want to see added in replacement of that. It's what lost us Foe's Requiem

I literally said that I would delete Battle Voice and Radiant Finale in a heart beat if it gave us Foe Requiem back.
Also do we really need Wind Bite, Caustic Bite and Iron Jaws? Especially when we cant even double proc any more.

[Avenheit]

burst meta has ruined a few classes imo and taken away that flow that shb had.

lookin at you GNB and SAM.

#3rdshotwasamistake

[Rika007]

Snip.

Spare me your own histrionics and I will spare you mine. This Bard is literally miles above the snore that was ARR and the jank that was Heavensward. And it blows the absolute pathetic mockery that was Shadowbringers Bard out of the water. The only version that is superior is Stormblood. Go play summoner, don't wreck another job with your complaints because you can't be bothered to think up your own fixes.

I can tell that you aren't actually interested though in discussing actual fixes to Bard's kit, you are just here to crap on the job and argue with anyone who disagrees with you. The fact that you instantly discounted optimizations for hardcore players tells me all I need to know that you and I will literally agree on nothing, so don't bother responding to me and I won't bother responding to any of your points.

[Rika007]

burst meta has ruined a few classes imo and taken away that flow that shb had.

lookin at you GNB and SAM.

#3rdshotwasamistake

Burst meta led to some of the best playable classes this game ever had. Endwalker is just Shadowbringers 2.0, the battle design is almost exactly the same, as is the class design. Both are pale shades of what was the combat design at it's peak in Heavensward (for tanks and healers) and Stormblood (for every DPS not named Machinist and Monk).

Edit: Also as an add on, burst meta did not mess up GNB or SAM. That was just the side effect of them trying to add things on to jobs that had near flawless rotations. We will see this next expansion (or sooner) with DRG, RDM and BLM. At a certain point the classes that are done well and feel like a dream can't have anything new added except flashy animations. Both those jobs were beneficiaries of ShB;s meta, which was also extremely burst dependent.