What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

Nowhere did I claim there had to be praise for crisitism to be legit. No idea where you're getting that from. I'm simply saying why I feel some people give alot of pushback to these types of threads. That's it

It's mostly because you've been on that particular topic for a few posts but if you want a specific example.

I think the reason why this stuff gets pushback from folks is because these statements often lean heavy into the negative aspect. No nuance or even a peep of anything positive. Some see it as unfair crisitsm and I can't exactly blame them. For example ,"I may not like this story beat but I can say that aspect was good, maybe this needed some work due to xyz but this part here was done well". That doesn't seem to be offered here. It's just full sale EW sucks.

This either comes off as you think we HAVE to be positive alongside the negative, or that there hasn't been discussion about what the story did well, which is false.

I think most of us are aware that threads like this will get pushback. People don't like when you insult something they like, even if what you say has merit to it. I don't think EW is the worst story or even the worst expansion. I think it's not a good capstone and there are topics and moments in it that I find very disturbing in a very unfun way. Notably that Venat did a genocide then the game goes out of its way to paint her as a hero for doing so. I don't have a problem with them wanting her to be a hero, but I do have a big problem with doing that while also ever trying to justify genocide. There are so many ways the writers could have achieved what they probably thought they needed to without doing that.

[Kozh]

Thats terrible writing to you. To me it shows there's more going on in the world and the center focus isn't always just me the player. Gives the world more life to it. But thats also down to viewpoints. And It's really odd to see people throwing around the QnA thing like it's a solid gold point. Not everyone needed that QnA. But again it's the same deal as always, "EW is the worst". It just has to be said 124 times in 54 different ways.

Wait what? How does Garlemald not getting its own expansion helps with worldbuilding? They could have flesh out Garlemald, thavnair, and ilsabard more if they decided to go with 7.0 being the end of hydaelyn vs zodiark arc, like they've planned before.

If anything, endwalker double down on us being the chosen one/the one who cause nearly everything to happen. Not only that, the pacing was atrocious because they need to resolve so many loose plot thread.

On the flip side I don't see the same folks who praise EW, praising EW calling it the best each and everyday.

Go to Twitter, or reddit. You can find them easily enough.

[AziraSyuren]

They had a lot they could’ve drew upon though. Nerva, 2nd legion, Anima, etc. They literally just killed the entire second legion off screen and also killed Nerva off screen. Two things built up throughout the entirety of ShB gone in a flash. Sorry but that’s horrible writing and i fail to see how an extra expansion giving actual depth and closure to these things would’ve been worse than what we got with Endwalker. A horribly paced expansion that despite supposedly tying up past plot points instead left us with more questions than answers to the point it was so bad the devs had to answer huge lore points in an out of game QnA. I’m pretty sure EW was rock bottom and anything else would be better.

That all was still hardly enough to fill an expansion. Despite the massive revolution that happened in Stormblood, they still had to throw in three extra zones to fill up all the space, and we all know how poorly paced that was. Garlemald, meanwhile, was mostly empty and destroyed by the end of ShB. All we were left with were story beats that nobody really cared about until EW made them think about what could've been.

Now, maybe if Garlemald weren't reduced to a shell of its former self by the end of ShB, you'd have a point. But I know for a fact that if we took a detour to Garlemald- empty and desolate or not- after all that was set up in ShB, people would be just as if not more upset at EW because it wouldn't have flowed logically from what the story was focusing on at the time. That's why I think 5.0 was the time for a Garlemald expansion. The idea of going to the First frankly came out of nowhere and nobody would've liked the expac were it not for the Exarch, Emet-Selch, and the Ancient lore drops that happened. And the latter two didn't make much sense to be so prominently featured on the First to begin with.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That all was still hardly enough to fill an expansion. Despite the massive revolution that happened in Stormblood, they still had to throw in three extra zones to fill up all the space, and we all know how poorly paced that was. Garlemald, meanwhile, was mostly empty and destroyed by the end of ShB. All we were left with were story beats that nobody really cared about until EW made them think about what could've been.

Now, maybe if Garlemald weren't reduced to a shell of its former self by the end of ShB, you'd have a point. But I know for a fact that if we took a detour to Garlemald- empty and desolate or not- after all that was set up in ShB, people would be just as if not more upset at EW because it wouldn't have flowed logically from what the story was focusing on at the time. That's why I think 5.0 was the time for a Garlemald expansion. The idea of going to the First frankly came out of nowhere and nobody would've liked the expac were it not for the Exarch, Emet-Selch, and the Ancient lore drops that happened. And the latter two didn't make much sense to be so prominently featured on the First to begin with.

As others have mentioned though…Ilsabard is huge. It’s not just Garlemald. Garlemald could be the focal point sure, but there’s so many other areas there to explore. Hell, if we actually were going to get a garlemald expansion then what happened to it in ShB might be different who knows. Fact is they had a lot to draw upon. Especially if you take into account the whole gabranth storyline as well.

[AziraSyuren]

As others have mentioned though…Ilsabard is huge. It’s not just Garlemald. Garlemald could be the focal point sure, but there’s so many other areas there to explore. Hell, if we actually were going to get a garlemald expansion then what happened to it in ShB might be different who knows. Fact is they had a lot to draw upon. Especially if you take into account the whole gabranth storyline as well.

ShB would've had to have been a lot different for it to work out. At some point we're just going to have to admit that ShB did not take the story in a good direction just because it was amazingly well-written in a vacuum. As great as it was in that vacuum, it was extremely short-sighted in how it handled story threads.

I'm also pretty sure Ishikawa didn't know that we'd not have a Garlemald expansion until after ShB's main story was done, so it was already too late.

[KizuyaKatogami]

ShB would've had to have been a lot different for it to work out. At some point we're just going to have to admit that ShB did not take the story in a good direction just because it was amazingly well-written in a vacuum. As great as it was in that vacuum, it was extremely short-sighted in how it handled story threads.

I'm also pretty sure Ishikawa didn't know that we'd not have a Garlemald expansion until after ShB's main story was done, so it was already too late.

I mean, i agree with that. They didn’t seem to do much planning ahead at all with ShB. It’s especially odd when you think about how they said the original final boss of ShB was to be Eden, which makes me think that’s probably the same storyline that would lead to garlemald expansion in 6.0.

[AziraSyuren]

I mean, i agree with that. They didn’t seem to do much planning ahead at all with ShB. It’s especially odd when you think about how they said the original final boss of ShB was to be Eden, which makes me think that’s probably the same storyline that would lead to garlemald expansion in 6.0.

See, THAT might have been interesting. Considering we permakilled the guy who was apparently responsible for giving Ascian shards their memories back in the Eden raids, it would've been very interesting to see how that impacted the machinations of the Ascians from then on.

[DevonEllwood]

I like being asked "what is the point" in criticizing the reason the Ancients deserved to be erased from history. Hydaelyn didn't change anything, she only delayed the inevitable. The sundered will go the way of the first or second Dead End worlds or just die at the end's Heat Death. I guess there are some people who liked the story and agreed with it yet still didn't understand the "message" it's trying to convey. It's not the end that matters it's the journey.

People coming in with arguments in defense of the story is great. I want to see more. But I want to see ones that haven't been done repeatedly. Get more creative. There's a reason why people say Atheists know more about the bible than the Christian. It's because for someone to argue against something, they really need to know what they're talking about. I want someone to change my mind about Endwalker.

I recently finished watching Peacemaker and I felt like it touched pretty close on the same aspects as Venat's decision.

For people not familiar with the show the third episode establishes the antagonists
There's an alien species that has come to earth "butterflies" that take human hosts. They need to be in the brain and therefore their host essentially becomes their own body. You can't remove them without killing the host. Their hosts are mostly important political powers. This is seen as an alien invasion and therefore they need to die.

At the end of the last episode

it's shown why they are on Earth

The butterflies ignored the signs of the destruction of their planet by their own hands (global warming, etc.). They came to Earth to have a place to live and be the guiding hand for humanity so they do not make the same mistakes. They made a promise to themselves that Earth's destruction would be prevented even if it people some of the population needs to die.

This information was given from the lead "butterfly" to the main protagonist. And the protagonist's decision was to kill her right after being told the truth. The short conversation the main protagonist has with another character is that he's unsure if he made the right decision and may have doomed the whole world. His decision was reaffirmed in that if humanity is going to fail or succeed then it needs to be able to do it on it's own and not through some bug overlord's decision.

The difference between the surprise in Shadowbringers and the surprise in Endwalker is that Shadowbringers added in something where there was nothing. The ascians did not have a backstory. The Endwalker surprise was re-writing it to the point where it conflicts with Shadowbringers. The ascians were just normal people, make Shadowbringers a tragedy. Endwalker's rewrite exists to villainize those same people in order to justify genocide. I don't feel these are the same thing.

@CrownySuccubus

"The problem I almost have with these anime-esque stories about "hope" and "purpose" is that they almost always rely on platitudes like "bonds" and "friendship" and "light" (aka "positive thinking").

Don't get me wrong, all of those things can be wonderful things to fall back on in dark moments, but they are...just as often...causes of despair in their own right. "Believe in your friends" is not a helpful message for someone who, for example, feels suicidally alone. "Just think positive" is likewise empty for someone suffering from clinical depression. It effectively replaces "post-religion" with a different type of blind faith.

That's another thing that irks me about Endwalker's story. I don't want to take anything away from all the people on YouTube, Reddit and Twitter claiming that Endwalker was just what they needed to deal with terrible things in their lives. If it helped those people, then good for them. But being someone who actually works in a field that deals with victims of abuse and hate who are often a single step from taking their lives, Endwalker's form of copium is aggravatingly oversimplistic to me."

Exactly. And this is one of the main reasons some people found Endwalker, for lack of a better word, insulting. I also fail to understand anyone who feels if they don't struggle, then their life would be boring. Do these struggles make for interesting stories? Sure, but they come at the expense of others' well being. So, no thanks, give me the Ancient world any day.

As far as Endwalker being "the worst ever...I am not sure I'd be willing to say that. I still feel the good parts were really good. I feel like it had some of the best scenes and the single best instance in the game. I loved Garlemald. I loved most of Thavnir. I loved Zenos showing up at the end and thought it was pretty funny. I loved the whole body snatching scene and I never laughed so hard at something in the game. Thancred's scene before landing in Ultima Thule was pretty cool. I'm happy I got to tell Elidibus I'm sorry. The problem is is those good moment are dragged down hard by the rest of the game. Horrible pacing, jumping the shark into outer space, slice of life scenes, protagonists not suffering any consequences, isolated "end of world" event, everything to do with Elpis, plot devices pulled out of nowhere, bringing the scions back was seen from a mile away, actually bringing the scions back, actually using the scions to push your themes of "suffering is inevitable" when half of them are privileged af, the themes themselves, the rabbits, doing the Thavnir side of the story before the Sharlyan side was horrible, BIRD GIRL, contradictory lore and apparent retcons from SH to EW, Zodiark not playing a bigger role, memory wipes (again!), time travel (again!).

Since I started in 2013, after ARR, I never felt like the story was a chore. I struggled to get through endwalker and at two points in the story I forgot what I was supposed to be doing and what the point of being there was (moon and Elpis). I still have not finished 6.1. I haven't done any of the role quests. I haven't finished the 24 man raid story. From hypothesizing, hanging on every bit of dialog, and doing side quests to not caring at all. Endwalker broke me, and not in a good way.

[Kozh]

ShB would've had to have been a lot different for it to work out. At some point we're just going to have to admit that ShB did not take the story in a good direction just because it was amazingly well-written in a vacuum. As great as it was in that vacuum, it was extremely short-sighted in how it handled story threads.

I'm also pretty sure Ishikawa didn't know that we'd not have a Garlemald expansion until after ShB's main story was done, so it was already too late.

Honestly it doesn't have to be so different. Yes Garlemald destruction began in 5.0 (cutscene at the ending), but it only start to be realized after patch 5.3. Before that, it's only vague scenes where fandaniel acting crazy and Zenos brooding. If they proceed with their plan to do a Garlemald expansion, they can easily make it so that the destruction only affects the city, not the whole nation.

We might say now "oh, there's so little going on with Garlemald it won't be enough to fill an entire expansion", but that's because we're not the writers. We can't easily make up new lore and stuff unlike them.

And personally, I disagree with "story beats nobody cared". Maybe players who like garlean plot are in the minority, but doesn't mean nobody cares.

[Theodric]

With Garlemald and the Garleans being heavily inspired by the Roman Empire and Russian cultural elements...there was never any shortage of inspiration that the writers could have tapped into had they so desired. They added plenty of nuance over the years, too, though it was always in side quests and never in the MSQ's up until Endwalker so many cool Garlean characters such as Regula van Hydrus are as forgotten by many players as they are by the development team. Or worse yet, never seen at all since they're locked behind optional content.