There's too much strawmanning people who criticize the game

[Kaurhz]

That's weird because I literally just quoted the guy verbatim.

"Some criticisms are not warranted" is literally quoted verbatim for example.

Like I said, given the blunt tone such is not easily expressed, especially through text form, and personally I'd rather skim-read and preserve my mental health. If that were you intent then I'll apologise regardless.

Anyway off-topic, but your server got world 2nd of DSR if I'm to recall? Congrats.

[SturmChurro]

Alright so you mentioned Legion raids and PvP. How are those different compared to other types of content in other MMOs? What sort of exciting and new challenges Lost Ark's Legion raiding does that warrants it as a "good" example of lasting content? What does ESO's PvP system do that makes them stand out from any other MMO's PvP that is considered valuable retention?

Not trying to be mean but I want to better understand where you are coming from.

Legion raids saved Lost Ark in Korea. It is their winning formula. It's lasting by the nature of how it is structured; the overall game progression. With FF, there is no real reason to go back and do harder content beyond getting BiS, your mount, or ultimate clear. They also release more content on this level more often than FF. Speaking on Lost Ark could be pretty much it's own topic. ESO's Cyrodill PvP is structured in a way that makes it lasting. The tug of war of factions vying map control at all times of the day, players trying to earn the title of 'Emperor', etc.

[Sicno]

Yes google, because I dont remember every thread number i visit. I don't have photographic memory. Apparently threads on certain requests only matter if they are from this year or something. I'm surte I can find other threads more recently with more time, but I dont really care enough.

I mean, you have a post from 2013 linked in your signature and apparently that is still relevant.

Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

2019 is pretty recent, all things considered. And its been brought up in other threads, again, a 2 second google search. The XIV forum search function is terrible so... That's all you're getting.

And AGAIN, it was an EXAMPLE of people asking for the game to change fundamentally.

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

[Midareyukki]

Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

Source for Sicno's signature quote. Just search for "1:14:22". Found via googling the quote.

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

Even if it was requested by players, the playerbase has grown a lot since and the outlook has changed. Moreover, players also requested a lot of stuff back in the day and now are taking their word back. Example: People wanted more gender-locked gear in HSW, but the trend started reversing in Stormblood once people started getting more gender-locked gear.

The source for this one, by the way, is my own research late into Stormblood by searching these very forums for a trend. People asking for them outright stopped existing once Stormblood was released, upon which the demand was for the exact opposite.

[Sicno]

2019 is pretty recent, all things considered. And its been brought up in other threads, again, a 2 second google search. The XIV forum search function is terrible so... That's all you're getting.

And AGAIN, it was an EXAMPLE of people asking for the game to change fundamentally.

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

...People requested the demolitions? And your "example" really stuck out in a thread about strawmanning to "win" arguments and shut down opinions/feedback.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

...People requested the demolitions? And your "example" really stuck out in a thread about strawmanning to "win" arguments and shut down opinions/feedback.

Demolitions weren't added until 3.1. A full 2 years after housing was added. And there were a LOT of complaint threads back then about people having housing and never logging in.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3e7ccabefa9954

[Lauront]

There's a lot of content I don't like in FFXIV, but I also don't feel compelled to log in every single day like some of ya'll do which is part of the problem. Its OK to not play every day. The developers try to spread out the type of content they release and have a variety of content. Focusing too much on a single thing would eventually lead to less content. Would you rather they created a "dynamic" content that's just ultra grindy that will hold you over for 6-12 months with no patches in between? Personally I prefer getting consistent updates every few months over what other MMO's do where they drop a "big update" and then go silent for a year.

At the moment I don't feel "compelled" to do more than log in a few hours for each patch, and I am done with it. I'm enjoying the new PVP mode, so I am keeping it running. I don't believe anyone is asking for content where they feel "compelled" to log in to grind for hours on end, so much as content that they can put some hours into each week and keep them engaged... the PVP content is a step in the right direction here, and perhaps the Criterion dungeons will be too, who knows, but this game's PVP remains pretty weak in many ways, and not everyone enjoys it, so I don't blame people for not taking it up.

The arguments always seem to be pitched on an all or nothing basis. I like the game just about enough to sub to it for the moment. It does not mean I don't think it could be better, and for that critical feedback is essential. I'm going to quote this poster because they tend to word this stuff well:

Then you aren't paying attention to what's being said. People aren't asking for three hours of daily activity, we're asking for a given patch cycle to last longer than a week or two when you're a veteran player. Adding content with longevity doesn't mean inherently punishing players who have less time to play.

Would the relic being released in 6.15 "punish" you? PvP is actually a decent example of precisely what many of us want. While it does have a finite lifespan in terms of rewards, the content itself is pretty fun. Now imagine if multiple pieces of content released with a similar foundation. If you weren't interested in PvP, you'd have say, the relic. Or maybe Criterion dungeons have a separate gear structure unique to that piece of content which you can continuously improve. In subsequent patches it gets easier to "catch up". That alone keeps the balanced approach of not making players with less time feel rushed but gives players with the time to spare something worth sinking their teeth into.

My hope is the Criterion dungeons fill the gap of adding more midcore content, but we'll see.

[LittleImp]

My hope is the Criterion dungeons fill the gap of adding more midcore content, but we'll see.

I have a bad feeling that Criterion are going to be tied to the relic and used as a replacement or augmentation for Bozja/Eureka style content. The touted scalability is probably just done to ensure it won't run into the same population related issues as Bozja/Eureka.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Legion raids saved Lost Ark in Korea. It is their winning formula. It's lasting by the nature of how it is structured; the overall game progression. With FF, there is no real reason to go back and do harder content beyond getting BiS, your mount, or ultimate clear. They also release more content on this level more often than FF. Speaking on Lost Ark could be pretty much it's own topic. ESO's Cyrodill PvP is structured in a way that makes it lasting. The tug of war of factions vying map control at all times of the day, players trying to earn the title of 'Emperor', etc.

You're still not explaining how exactly those two features make it "long lasting" though. Whats different between Legion raids and any other type of raid content in MMOs? Is it content that constantly changes up the encounters? Is it a rogue like sort of instance? Is there's a set end to them if I'm a high end raider? whats to keep me from playing them if I already have BiS in Lost Ark? Details please, because what you just described can be said literally about any other content in other games.

Same with ESO's PvP, why do people care about taking control over an area? Is it because you get a benefit for everyone within that faction who does questing in Cyrodill such as boosted exp, better rewards? (ala Burning Crusade's world PvP) How is earning a title in pvp any different from earning rewards in PvP modes on other games?

I'm still not being sold what exactly those two games's features have that are so long lasting you'd wanna slap yo mama. What if I'm one of the people that doesnt care for high end raiding content or pvp? Its these kinds of questions you need to ask yourself what you like about them before you compare them to similar features in games.