A Toxic Culture in XIV

[LalaLlama]

As someone who is new to the game, I can agree that the community comes across as quite toxic. I'll give you examples.

When I complain that the story takes too long (It's insane that a new player HAS to play 150-200+ hours of story before they get to end-game). I get told I must not like the story (When I always say I enjoy the story itself) I should quit the game (When I want to enjoy this game and do in some aspects) and that I have no clue how JRPG's and RPG's are played (Even though I've spent 20+ years playing both of these, JRPG's being my favourite game genre).

When I complain that playing as a healer can be boring just pressing 1 button and a second button every 40 seconds for above 50% of fights (Sometimes upwards of 80%) I get told that "new players struggle so it's fine" (When I am a new player myself), I get told "If you want to have DPS skills, play as DPS (When I've said I enjoy being a healer, I just find the gameplay boring. As would ANYONE if they spent the majority of the time hitting 1 button), or, if I mention ANYTHING about the devs increasing the damage so that healers are actually NEEDED, I get told to stop being an elitist and how "ff14 isn't that type of game, so maybe you should just quit?".

These are just 2 examples I can think of right now. But, the majority of the time, I'm pretty much told by people to "just quit". Yeah, great way to hold on to new players, eh! Expect people to play 9+ years of content that requires 150-200+ hours to get through, and when they have legitimate complaints about it, just tell them to f-off.

[Stanelis]

Greetings, the events of this day and the responses around the housing issue and other hot button points I feel have elicited a discussion over the title topic. I believe XIV has fostered a culture of toxic (for lack of a better word) positivity. What is toxic positivity? Its when all critique and dissenting opinions get drowned out in favor of a non-critical view and a glossing over of faults and issues. We've seen this today in blind defense of housing bugs that never should have happened. We've seen it in the past with character customization, limited races and hair styles, and bizarre job changes. I saw it personally today when in my server's (Siren) novice network some folks were discussing cutscenes in EW. I voiced the opinion that I thought there were too many and too long. This led to personal attacks. A short while later some other mentors and sprouts were discussing topics against ToS and I voiced that perhaps those topics were not appropriate for the channel, and this was met with more personal attacks with crude language. I sought to not violate ToS of my own accord, but the vitriol they were typing was quite against it. This led to a kick, and while I could report the language I do not want to be petty. I, however, have no other idea how we might combat this outside of reporting when these players have been so emboldened by this toxic positivity culture that has taken hold in XIV.

I means it was why FFXIV V1 was released in such a state. Even in the 1.0 alpha forums you could find people defending the old wonky design choices and bugs.

[Payadopa]

As someone who is new to the game, I can agree that the community comes across as quite toxic. I'll give you examples.

When I complain that the story takes too long (It's insane that a new player HAS to play 150-200+ hours of story before they get to end-game). I get told I must not like the story (When I always say I enjoy the story itself) I should quit the game (When I want to enjoy this game and do in some aspects) and that I have no clue how JRPG's and RPG's are played (Even though I've spent 20+ years playing both of these, JRPG's being my favourite game genre).

When I complain that playing as a healer can be boring just pressing 1 button and a second button every 40 seconds for above 50% of fights (Sometimes upwards of 80%) I get told that "new players struggle so it's fine" (When I am a new player myself), I get told "If you want to have DPS skills, play as DPS (When I've said I enjoy being a healer, I just find the gameplay boring. As would ANYONE if they spent the majority of the time hitting 1 button), or, if I mention ANYTHING about the devs increasing the damage so that healers are actually NEEDED, I get told to stop being an elitist and how "ff14 isn't that type of game, so maybe you should just quit?".

These are just 2 examples I can think of right now. But, the majority of the time, I'm pretty much told by people to "just quit". Yeah, great way to hold on to new players, eh! Expect people to play 9+ years of content that requires 150-200+ hours to get through, and when they have legitimate complaints about it, just tell them to f-off.

I think the game has a lot of problems. Housing, boring PvE job design, uninspired dungeons etc etc. And the story can be hit-or-miss for people, sure.

But why do people complain about a story being told in a chronological order? I don't start book 1 out of 5 only to bemoan that I'm at book 3 and my friends are already reading the last one. I honestly don't get the logic in that, no offense. One could make an argument for not everything being tied to the MSQ, I guess. But other than that?

My question would be why you even feel the need to reach 'end game?' Is it the fights? The glam? The abilities? You have the full scope of the game at level 50. Everything else is just a better(?) iteration of what came before in 10 level increments. 200 or so hours seem daunting, sure. But isn't content a good thing (if done right)?

[LalaLlama]

"But why do people complain about a story being told in a chronological order?" When did I complain about that? I complained about it being 150-200+ hours of 9+ year old content. Sure, keep the story exactly the same, but lower the amount of time it takes to get through it. expecting a new player to sit through 150-200+ hours of a visual novel is terrible game design.

Why do I want to reach end-game? Because I want to play the end-game. I want to play with friends, be apart of the community. Be able to do things without it being detrimental to my progression in the story. If I go and do something now, I'll have to go back to exactly the same spot of the MSQ and pretty much every bit of combat will be level-synced to that point, meaning everything I've done was done for 0 progress in the story.

It's not the fact that 200 hours seeming daunting, it's the fact that I'm REQUIRED to play for 200+ hours of a visual novel with rare cases of combat, of a solo experience in an MMO before I can actually participate IN the MMO side of things.
It's the fact that it's 200 hours of linear progression. Yes, there is all of this world to see, but, if you divulge from the path of the MSQ, you'll be slowing down your progression through the MSQ, whilst also over-levelling it. Everything outside of the MSQ is meaningless when you're levelling, because you NEED to do the MSQ to progress.

I also love how you compare it to a book. Yes, you don't complain that you're only on book 3 whilst your friends are on book 5, but, what point are you trying to make? A book is about the story and nothing else. You don't read a book for anything BUT the story. Whereas FF14 is not a book, nor is it a visual novel. It's a game. It's an MMORPG that closes off the MMO till you spend 150-200 hours of solo content. But, again, it's a GAME. If I wanted to play a visual novel, I would go and do that. If I wanted to watch nothing but cutscene's, I'd go and watch films or Anime. I am PLAYING FF14 where I spend the majority of the time with my hands off of the keyboard doing nothing engaging for me except watching the screen and being told how all of these things happened.

[OhNooo]

I also love how you compare it to a book. Yes, you don't complain that you're only on book 3 whilst your friends are on book 5, but, what point are you trying to make? A book is about the story and nothing else. You don't read a book for anything BUT the story. Whereas FF14 is not a book, nor is it a visual novel. It's a game. It's an MMORPG that closes off the MMO till you spend 150-200 hours of solo content. But, again, it's a GAME. If I wanted to play a visual novel, I would go and do that. If I wanted to watch nothing but cutscene's, I'd go and watch films or Anime. I am PLAYING FF14 where I spend the majority of the time with my hands off of the keyboard doing nothing engaging for me except watching the screen and being told how all of these things happened.

I completely agree and I think as more expansions get added, SE is going to have to figure this out because the sheer amount of MSQ new players are going to have to go through to unlock a cool job they saw in a new expansion trailer is literally a huge wall. I think they should have the msq as optional so that your progression isn't locked out of it.

But as you've seen, a lot of people in this community are really into the story and can defend it hardcore if they think you're talking bad about it. Just know that you aren't alone in your frustrations.

[Alleo]

And here is the proof.

And I am not really sure where Payadopa was toxic? (Since you said this was proof and this topic is about toxic culture) He asked for more information, nothing more. He did not really attack you personally or anything like that. He also never said that the game was perfect or that you should stop playing. (Things that make an argument in a way toxic)

I guess if his post already counts as toxic than its no wonder that some feel that this forum is too toxic...then we really come down to that any opposing view on any of the two sides will be seen as bad instead of just that: an opposing view.

[LalaLlama]

And I am not really sure where Payadopa was toxic? (Since you said this was proof and this topic is about toxic culture) He asked for more information, nothing more. He did not really attack you personally or anything like that. He also never said that the game was perfect or that you should stop playing. (Things that make an argument in a way toxic)

I guess if his post already counts as toxic than its no wonder that some feel that this forum is too toxic...then we really come down to that any opposing view on any of the two sides will be seen as bad instead of just that: an opposing view.

I see how that can come across as that, and so have removed it. I didn't mean proof of it being toxic, though, I will readily admit that anyone who read that would take it as exactly that. I don't know what made se say "here is proof" without giving context to what I meant.

I'm currently typing to several things, so mixed the content up a little bit. That "here is proof" was referencing people taking what criticism someone says and spins it out of context. So, again, that's my bad. I never meant to say that Payadopa was being toxic, didn't even consider it as a toxic thing.

It has been edited out ^_^.

[Anhra]

I wonder what happened to the old saying "Sticks and Stones may break my Bones, but Words/Names can never hurt me"?

[Alleo]

I see how that can come across as that, and so have removed it. I didn't mean proof of it being toxic, though, I will readily admit that anyone who read that would take it as exactly that. I don't know what made se say "here is proof" without giving context to what I meant.

I'm currently typing to several things, so mixed the content up a little bit. That "here is proof" was referencing people taking what criticism someone says and spins it out of context. So, again, that's my bad. I never meant to say that Payadopa was being toxic, didn't even consider it as a toxic thing.

It has been edited out ^_^.

Ah good to know. Was honestly wondering what exactly was so toxic about his posts, so thanks for answering that.

I wonder what happened to the old saying "Sticks and Stones may break my Bones, but Words/Names can never hurt me"?

Is that old saying really true though? IMO words can do as much or even more harm than "real" attacks. A great speech can touch the hearts of those it reaches but can also poison them. Words can boost morales but also absolutely destroy someone confidence. If words held no power then there wouldnt be lessons where they teach you how to use them for your own gains.

Yes there are people that hold out against verbal attacks longer than others. But I am quite sure that most if not all people have their breaking point. That no matter how you try to play it of, insults do hurt.

[Jaquan]

snip

Umm you know they actually did it multiple times already? ARR which is the part most people seem to have biggest issues has been trimmed down several times over in recent years and as someone who only recently finished it I don't really think there's much you can cut off.

I do understand the desire to "play with your friends at the end game" even if I don't share it. Having no inclination to rush and people at FC I joined seems to be very open to that idea. While by no means perfect solution you can buy story skip even if that still means you'll have to complete the latest expansion MSQ. You can also have your friends help you out. Even having access to someone that will fly you around speeds stuff up considerably. And yes you're right you're playing Final Fantasy XIV and not just reading the book. Except that's exactly it. You're playing Final Fantasy XIV. The 14th mainline entry in the Final Fantasy franchise that always put certain focus on it's story. Even while it's an MMO it still focuses on the story unlike some other games that either don't have overarching story or relegate it to supplementary materials. Yes it's not for everyone so I don't think that for example last person you replied to meant anything negative. It's just... That's how this game is and it's not going to change. There's no way as of now to divorce content from the story because they were never designed to be separate.