What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[MicahZerrshia]

Just that her sacrifices was everyones soul being sunderd and split instantly instead of a "few" being sacrificed every so often.

I think ppl always forget that the "sacrifices" to zodiark were A: completely voluntary and B: reversable. The souls of those who empowered Zodiarc were still completely intact, we saw this first hand on the moon. Their aether was needed to summon him but the end goal was to bring them back after a more permanent power source was found. Emet did nothing but harp on that point in ShB.

Hydaelyn sacrificed everyone herself, without consulting them, in a way that was simply not reversable unless the reflections, worlds, and cultures were completely destroyed in favor for another. All because she felt she knew what was better for the millions/billions/trillions (we don't know pop numbers) of people than anyone else and instead of bringing all this knowledge to those who could possibly fix things, decided "nah, I got this" and then made the world shatter. I think there is a word for that...

And logically speaking, if the ancients had the willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the planet, I am sure a better solution could have been found, even if it required them to take a hit to their livelihood. Venat simply had a narcissistic personality peppered with a savior complex and it ended up getting the world and everyone/thing in it shattered, then spent millennia after gaslighting her way through to a solution that really benefited no one but her ego.

[Xirean]

I think ppl always forget that the "sacrifices" to zodiark were A: completely voluntary and B: reversable. The souls of those who empowered Zodiarc were still completely intact, we saw this first hand on the moon. Their aether was needed to summon him but the end goal was to bring them back after a more permanent power source was found. Emet did nothing but harp on that point in ShB.

Hydaelyn sacrificed everyone herself, without consulting them, in a way that was simply not reversable unless the reflections, worlds, and cultures were completely destroyed in favor for another. All because she felt she knew what was better for the millions/billions/trillions (we don't know pop numbers) of people than anyone else and instead of bringing all this knowledge to those who could possibly fix things, decided "nah, I got this" and then made the world shatter. I think there is a word for that...

And logically speaking, if the ancients had the willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the planet, I am sure a better solution could have been found, even if it required them to take a hit to their livelihood. Venat simply had a narcissistic personality peppered with a savior complex and it ended up getting the world and everyone/thing in it shattered, then spent millennia after gaslighting her way through to a solution that really benefited no one but her ego.

This is a good example of some of the problems with the Elpis story line. If they wanted to show that Zodiark was a problem then why not have him go on a rampage when Elidibus left him? Say Venat is good or at least not evil? Make the sundering of the star an accident. It really feels like the writers discounted the possibility of things occurring not on purpose. Every action required intention, but they forgot that intention has a much easier tie to morality questions.

[Teraq]

(snip)

I get that the writers wanted to tell us Venat was conflicted about what she did. I think most of us here do. The problem is that Venat herself is the only one commenting on how cruel her actions were, and it is largely glossed over by everyone else. There is very little nuance to be found when Y'shtola immediately pats her on the back because dYnAMiS (also, I entirely disagree that Ancients could not do a single thing against her, and that the plot heavily suggests otherwise is IMO a complete failing on the writers' part) or when Emet-Selch compliments her after literally suffering for 12,000 years because of her.

When combined with the extremely shallow flanderization of Ancients as a whole from ShB to EW as people who were stuck in the past, would never learn to grow or deal with suffering and did not respect life that wasn't theirs –according to one single mentally ill dude working at an animal research facility who didn't talk to anyone else much–, the narrative feels extremely one-sided and cheapened compared to the grey conflict initially presented in ShB.

Make the sundering of the star an accident. It really feels like the writers discounted the possibility of things occurring not on purpose. Every action required intention, but they forgot that intention has a much easier tie to morality questions.

This is the only way I would have accepted the time loop, personally. Have Venat actually decide to fight "fate" rather than be its implacable agent purposefully engaging in a whole lot of bs to accomplish a time loop 12,000 years later at the cost of boundless suffering (that might not even have resulted in success!).

[ZeraSkiratea]

I think ppl always forget that the "sacrifices" to zodiark were A: completely voluntary and B: reversable. The souls of those who empowered Zodiarc were still completely intact, we saw this first hand on the moon. Their aether was needed to summon him but the end goal was to bring them back after a more permanent power source was found. Emet did nothing but harp on that point in ShB.

It is if not outright stated, at least HEAVIYL implied that they intended to sacrifice the new races and species that sprung forth after the second sacrifice for the third and beyond, not themself(or atleast not themself exclusivly)

And logically speaking, if the ancients had the willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the planet, I am sure a better solution could have been found, even if it required them to take a hit to their livelihood. Venat simply had a narcissistic personality peppered with a savior complex and it ended up getting the world and everyone/thing in it shattered, then spent millennia after gaslighting her way through to a solution that really benefited no one but her ego.

Yes, Yes what Venat did was Genocide in some definition i am not here to argue that, noone should deny that.
BUT it is pretty much spelled out(if not at least implied heavily) that, no the ancients would NOT have discoverd a way to fight Meteion, they would not have reached ultima Thule and Confronted the Endisinger. They would NOT have made it this far.
Their reaction to experience true wide scale suffering for the first time(or at least first time in a LONG LONG WHILE) was to run away, to look away and sacrifice more of their number to make the catastrophy as if it never happend.
They tried to escape, heck Emet selch and the unsunderd still tried to escape after they got sunderd, to the point where they planned to sacrifice more lives(lives they found "beneath" them) to bring back those they lost

[redheadturk]

It is if not outright stated, at least HEAVIYL implied that they intended to sacrifice the new races and species that sprung forth after the second sacrifice for the third and beyond, not themself(or atleast not themself exclusivly)



Yes, Yes what Venat did was Genocide in some definition i am not here to argue that, noone should deny that.
BUT it is pretty much spelled out(if not at least implied heavily) that, no the ancients would NOT have discoverd a way to fight Meteion, they would not have reached ultima Thule and Confronted the Endisinger. They would NOT have made it this far.
Their reaction to experience true wide scale suffering for the first time(or at least first time in a LONG LONG WHILE) was to run away, to look away and sacrifice more of their number to make the catastrophy as if it never happend.
They tried to escape, heck Emet selch and the unsunderd still tried to escape after they got sunderd, to the point where they planned to sacrifice more lives(lives they found "beneath" them) to bring back those they lost

Let's just say if it was between my loved ones and sentient dogs? Yeah, sorry, those dogs are going into Zodiark's belly. And you know what? I wouldn't even feel bad about it. And you know why they would have had trouble discovering such? Because Venat freaking lied to them by omission! If they had known what they were up against? Ancients are damned resourceful people, they would have found a way.

[KariTheFox]

Let's just say if it was between my loved ones and sentient dogs? Yeah, sorry, those dogs are going into Zodiark's belly. And you know what? I wouldn't even feel bad about it.

I wonder how the dogs would feel about that.

[redheadturk]

I wonder how the dogs would feel about that.

I'd have my family back, so honestly, duncare.

Also, Kizuya has a point, we don't feel bad when we eat beef or pork either [pigs which are stated to have the mental ability of a three year old]. Why should the Ancients feel bad about sacrificing familiars?

[KariTheFox]

I'd have my family back, so honestly, duncare.

Also, Kizuya has a point, we don't feel bad when we eat beef or pork either [pigs which are stated to have the mental ability of a three year old]. Why should the Ancients feel bad about sacrificing familiars?

Depends, does the familiar have the capacity to think "I don't want to be sacrificed" and then communicate that to the ancients?

[MicahZerrshia]

to the point where they planned to sacrifice more lives(lives they found "beneath" them) to bring back those they lost

Were they really sacrificing those who they saw as "beneath" them or were they trying to put the pieces of fractured souls back together to undo the damage the was caused by the sundering in the first place? It's really not difficult to understand why Emet and crew saw us as not being alive. If you sister threw a vase across the room and broke said vase because it was in danger of being knocked off a table that you already put supports under, are the pieces still a vase? That is up for a philosophical argument. But you have a couple things you can do right now. You can either throw the pieces away or remake them into the vase it used to be, and if that vase was important to you, what would you do? Are you destroying the pieces for the sake of the whole or do you leave the vase broken for the sake of the pieces? The whole evil ascian thing is really not so cut and dry, esp with what we know now.

And it really wasn't spelled out that the ancients would not have succeeded, except by hydaelyn, who of course is going to use any means necessary to justify her actions, which is where the gaslighting comes in. Because that is what narcissists, abusers and straight up dictators do. When anything bad happens, the majority tend to hide, that much is true. But all it takes is a few with means and knowledge on the subject to come together and find a solution. Hydaelyn had that knowledge and as a people that had the means. Imagine, when the first plague hit mankind and we were dying by the thousands, if the top scientist who could save us because they knew exactly what was happening, decided just to kill everyone because future generations could do it better, even if the virus that killed most of humanity set us back millenia evolutionarily speaking.

[Lauront]

It is if not outright stated, at least HEAVIYL implied that they intended to sacrifice the new races and species that sprung forth after the second sacrifice for the third and beyond, not themself(or atleast not themself exclusivly)

It's not implied - what is implied is that they'd use the life seeded by Zodiark, which given what we now know of how creation magicks functioned and the apparent emergence of life on the star (i.e. that the ancients were responsible for at the least a good chunk of it), is very likely to be further creations. When you say "new races", there are none. The sundered are sundered ancients who evolved in specific ways in response to their new circumstances according to the Q&A. All this leaves is animals, plant life and arcane entities/familiars (of which the WoL is not considered to be a characteristic example, as per the sidequests... even Meteion, an unapproved familiar which nonetheless is herself in some facets robotic, is exceptional.) So effectively, arcane AIs in the last category.

Were they really sacrificing those who they saw as "beneath" them or were they trying to put the pieces of fractured souls back together to undo the damage the was caused by the sundering in the first place? It's really not difficult to understand why Emet and crew saw us as not being alive. If you sister threw a vase across the room and broke said vase because it was in danger of being knocked off a table that you already put supports under, are the pieces still a vase? That is up for a philosophical argument. But you have a couple things you can do right now. You can either throw the pieces away or remake them into the vase it used to be, and if that vase was important to you, what would you do? Are you destroying the pieces for the sake of the whole or do you leave the vase broken for the sake of the pieces? The whole evil ascian thing is really not so cut and dry, esp with what we know now.

And it really wasn't spelled out that the ancients would not have succeeded, except by hydaelyn, who of course is going to use any means necessary to justify her actions, which is where the gaslighting comes in. Because that is what narcissists, abusers and straight up dictators do. When anything bad happens, the majority tend to hide, that much is true. But all it takes is a few with means and knowledge on the subject to come together and find a solution. Hydaelyn had that knowledge and as a people that had the means. Imagine, when the first plague hit mankind and we were dying by the thousands, if the top scientist who could save us because they knew exactly what was happening, decided just to kill everyone because future generations could do it better, even if the virus that killed most of humanity set us back millenia evolutionarily speaking.

Very well said.