The story is great, but it blatantly gets in the way of the rest of the game

[pikalovr]

now this is coming from somebody who tolerated the story up to HW cause i only tolerated ARR cause i understood it was the "world building" chapter of the story but to sit here and say that people complaining about ARR story being a slog gameplay wise not even story wise (and yes there is still ALOT that could prolly be trimmed story wise from post ARR) are weird is in and of itself weird. if i wanted a story with slow progression in gameplay i'd play a JRPG, it's one of the biggest reasons people hate the it's a JRPG that just so happens to be an MMO perspective. you're denying an entire side of the GAME to justify locking out for another part. how would you feel if you had to clear ultimates after leveling for 100 levels to unlock a super well crafted story and the leveling felt bad? then do what those people are and say you want to have access to the story but there's no way to skip to the ultimates to reach the story (and no don't hit me with the whole buy story skip BS)

you starting to see why this is catch 22? there's a reason most story based games are in fact single player games or if they are multiplayer they lock alot of the worldbuilding behind sidequests, NPC conversations in the overworld, random events, etc... also if you want a game with a good story why not go play like any of the other FF games? you see how stupid that argument is?

having an alternative path to reach content that people want to play is not hindering you in any way. yoshi-p will still make a well crafted story but now we're not punishing people who might see this MMORPG as a more beginner friendly MMORPG (which is the way it's headed sadly but i digress). or for example hell i didn't even join for the story i joined for the music and the fact i could test and play all jobs on one character, plus i had seen older gameplay and thought wow there's a bit of depth to this. now thats not to say i didn't come to like the story post ARR but the point is that if they do want to experience the story later on it's almost as if we have an entire system for going back and TAKING your time to complete it/watching major CS and that can be accessed while having access to everything the game has to offer

and as i said when i suggested a simple alternative system for skipping the story the dungeons and trials themselves are more than enough to setup a basic story for each expansion in a vaccum with some slight overarching points ala ARR and STB with the garleans

[Tychonius]

The progress you are making is progress on the story which develops the world, the characters, and the conflicts that drive the plot. [...]

If advancing the plot and experiencing the story is not meaningful progress in a game built around that in a franchise built around that to you then just buy the skips.

This is a lazy argument. This is literally the only RPG in existence where progression and story don't flow together seamlessly and back each other up, but instead get in each other's way. That is the criticism I have for this game, and I'm not going to accept "If you hate that the story and the progression fight each other you just don't like the story enough" as an argument for why things should be that way.

It's a massive flaw in the game. There is no other RPG I can think of that has this problem or where this would be acceptable.

[kaynide]

This is a lazy argument. This is literally the only RPG in existence where progression and story don't flow together seamlessly and back each other up, but instead get in each other's way.

What does this even mean?

Also I could -literally- list several rpgs where progression doesn’t flow with the story, even going so far as hindering it.

Ultima Exodus being infamous, where leveling up is both a punishment and largely meaningless.

[Tychonius]

What does this even mean?

Also I could -literally- list several rpgs where progression doesn’t flow with the story, even going so far as hindering it.

Ultima Exodus being infamous, where leveling up is both a punishment and largely meaningless.

Yes in Ultima Exodus your stats are raised separately from your level and you can choose whether or not you want to level up. So if you increase your stats to max without touching your level you are proportionally more powerful than many of the monsters the game throws at you. It's also a game from 1983 and this type of advancement system hasn't really been copied to other games or is considered anything other than a flawed design.

Flawed advancement systems exist in many games. Probably the biggest one that comes to mind is Elderscrolls IV: Oblivion, where putting all the skills you don't want to use as your main skills gives you a much more powerful character because you only level up when your main skills go up, so as long as you don't put any of the skills you want to use as main skills you can raise them to 100 while the game still considers you level 1 and scales all content to level 1.

Neither of those are examples of a game where the story and the advancement work against each other though. they are simply games where the advancement system is badly designed and the most powerful characters are created by not using the system in the most intuitive way. That's simply not the same as a game where the story fits so badly into the natural progression of a player that you need to be artificially capped for significant lengths of time just so the story can be told.

But, more importantly, even if you could name other games with the same problem, how does that somehow excuse the existence of the problem here?

[DPZ2]

This game is based off of WoW. Yoshi P has literally said they played WoW and used it as an example how to to develop the game. You think FFXIV made the whole tome stone system attached to a daily roulette? That was WoW."

If you really want to know the influencers for this game, here's an interview from last year where he discusses that in depth. https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...-interview-wow

As for the whole tomestone system? If World of Warcraft had implemented such a system in their dungeon instances, I might give some credence to your conjectures. However, rewards that were anything like 'tomestones' in WoW have always been attached to daily quests, not dungeon roulettes. Dungeons have never been required content in WoW. So much for being a copycat game, eh?

[Iscah]

The majority of people who don't want changes are those who played the game cycle by cycle, so they haven't had to do it from start to finish. So, here's a challenge for you all, Go back to ARR with a level 1 character, NEVER touch any of the other side-stuff that doesn't get unlocked by the MSQ, do the REQUIRED dungeons/trials and see how long it takes before you give up and go back to the end-game.

I've played through the MSQ multiple times. Lore and creating multiple characters are both things I like. It's certainly a bit of a trudge to get through parts of it, but other parts I really enjoy replaying, and it certainly doesn't send me running back to endgame – there simply isn't much there for me. I'd rather build up another character and play with glamours.

Not only that, when a new player decides to voice their problems with the fact that the MSQ gates pretty much everything in the game, only to be met with so many people telling them to "play something else" and "final fantasy games are not for you". It's sad, and it's toxic.

I continue to be puzzled by the argument that "it's toxic to tell people to play something else". I've tried and disliked and abandoned dozens of games over time. It's how I find the things that I do like. No game can cater to every player, so if you have deep-seated issues with one then there is probably something else out there that you'd enjoy more.

Then to top it all off, the other thing people throw at you is "buy a skip potion" Why? Why should I pay FULL PRICE for a game that has a SUBSCRIPTION to then have to pay to get to the point of the game I want to play?

Like it or not (I'm not particularly keen on it myself) we have signed up for a game that we accept requires a monthly fee. If you play through the MSQ, that's maybe two months of paid subscription that you pay for. Money + time in = progress out.

A skip fast-forwards you to the result of that two months' progress, giving you the progress without needing to spend the time. From that perspective, it makes some degree of sense that SE wants you to pay them the money you would have had to spend on subscription fees to get to where you want to go.

On that logic, you haven't lost money by skipping (assuming you would have persevered to the end) and you're still well ahead on time spent, which makes it seem like not such a poor deal if you're willing to pay at all.

I won't deny it – a free skip option would be nice. But I can't see SE introducing the option for players to infinitely do it for free when right now they make money off it.

[pikalovr]

I've played through the MSQ multiple times. Lore and creating multiple characters are both things I like. It's certainly a bit of a trudge to get through parts of it, but other parts I really enjoy replaying, and it certainly doesn't send me running back to endgame – there simply isn't much there for me. I'd rather build up another character and play with glamours.

I continue to be puzzled by the argument that "it's toxic to tell people to play something else". I've tried and disliked and abandoned dozens of games over time. It's how I find the things that I do like. No game can cater to every player, so if you have deep-seated issues with one then there is probably something else out there that you'd enjoy more.

Like it or not (I'm not particularly keen on it myself) we have signed up for a game that we accept requires a monthly fee. If you play through the MSQ, that's maybe two months of paid subscription that you pay for. Money + time in = progress out.

A skip fast-forwards you to the result of that two months' progress, giving you the progress without needing to spend the time. From that perspective, it makes some degree of sense that SE wants you to pay them the money you would have had to spend on subscription fees to get to where you want to go.

On that logic, you haven't lost money by skipping (assuming you would have persevered to the end) and you're still well ahead on time spent, which makes it seem like not such a poor deal if you're willing to pay at all.

I won't deny it – a free skip option would be nice. But I can't see SE introducing the option for players to infinitely do it for free when right now they make money off it.

1. as i've stated before a story skip option will in no way shape or form affect how YOU play the game so stop using that as a counterpoint as to why others should slog through parts

2. cause it is toxic it's why telling people oh you don't like a thing about the game? go play another game, is toxic. like i said i didn't even join for the story and thought ARR was a slog so i should've just quit right then right? and not come to actually enjoy the story later on. get off this high horse of well people don't enjoy the game for the reasons i do so they should just go play something else automatically

3.for everyone else please please never condone stuff like this it's the reason more and more game companies feel they can literally do anything and get away with it or get a little backlash then attempt it again like 2 games down the line

also yes a free path to skip story will lose them money but very few people are gonna sit there and level 5 different alts through dungeons and trials alone their main and maybe one alt at most there's still plenty of reasons to just "boost" your character/alternative jobs they wanna play

[IdowhatIwant]

If you really want to know the influencers for this game, here's an interview from last year where he discusses that in depth. https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...-interview-wow

As for the whole tomestone system? If World of Warcraft had implemented such a system in their dungeon instances, I might give some credence to your conjectures. However, rewards that were anything like 'tomestones' in WoW have always been attached to daily quests, not dungeon roulettes. Dungeons have never been required content in WoW. So much for being a copycat game, eh?

Pretty sure Wraith and Cata had a token system tied into running the dungeons to get your class sets. And the raids dropped tokens to get a better raid set for heroics IIRC it's been a long time. I do remember heroic dungeons in Wraith was a stepping stone into raiding Nax as well as in Cata.

I continue to be puzzled by the argument that "it's toxic to tell people to play something else". I've tried and disliked and abandoned dozens of games over time. It's how I find the things that I do like. No game can cater to every player, so if you have deep-seated issues with one then there is probably something else out there that you'd enjoy more.

I won't deny it – a free skip option would be nice. But I can't see SE introducing the option for players to infinitely do it for free when right now they make money off it.

It's not really toxic it's just sort of a understatement. Obviously people wouldn't make suggestions of give criticism if they didn't like the game at all. And it is super common for "just quit" to be the answer to criticism on the forums.

You are right, SE probably won't do anything when they can make money off it, but I can still view it as a scummy practice.

[Azuri]

All this talk about story being "oh so important" and neccessary for XIV is laughable. How much does Yoshida value the integrity of that story? 21.75€. That's it.

You know, if the story was really the only reason why the game exists and was entirely driven by it you wouldn't already be allowed to skip it for ~1.8 months worth of subscription. This is a simple business tool based on an estimate of how long you would normally take to complete MSQ. A "you can either subscribe and play for X amount of time working through some content we've released before and still want a return on investment on or just drop us a lump sum ahead and be free". Pretty standard practice these days and not like it's a big deal... but at least don't try to cover it with "MuH sToRy" bull.

[Xirean]

This is a lazy argument. This is literally the only RPG in existence where progression and story don't flow together seamlessly and back each other up, but instead get in each other's way. That is the criticism I have for this game, and I'm not going to accept "If you hate that the story and the progression fight each other you just don't like the story enough" as an argument for why things should be that way.

It's a massive flaw in the game. There is no other RPG I can think of that has this problem or where this would be acceptable.

I'm confused how the two fight each other. Can you explain this?