On Venat's Role in the Story

[Tehmon]

Agreed that the calamities were pretty bad and set back the Sundered quite a bit, erasing much history (I am still interested in Allag since 2.0, even after all this...)... I've wondered the same thing since ShB. No clue how much involvement Emet had in it since he didn't say, and if I recall, Amon was only recruited after Allag's fall.

I think the Sundered can share some of the blame for falling to their dark desires -- their flaws, vices, and wickedness are alluded to by those such as Amon, Nanamo's voice in UT, and so on, but still, hope would endure in spite of that. I am just not a fan of any implication that the sundered are simply poor, innocent children who can do no wrong as it undermines that message (as much as I have distaste to how it was all executed)... I mean, even Tiamat, an unsundered dragon, was swayed into the temptation of bringing back her loved one by the Ascians.

Elidibus handed Ilberd the Niddy eye, the means to accomplish something. Ilberd, a big boy who can think for himself and a moral agent, chose to martyr himself (and everyone with him!) so he could free Ala Mhigo at any cost.

Certainly sundered aren't innocent in their own right. That was never the intent behind anything I've said. What I mean is that ascians have actively and intentionally chosen to manipulate the sundered to their own means, and without such interference, one has to wonder how much better off such a world would've been, and what difference it would've made. And when trying to judge the actions of the sundered as a whole, I do not think we can ignore what influence ascians have had on things getting as bad as they have, even if it's part of the sundered's nature to fall to wickedness.

But alas, I think there are two parties in this dilemma falling to the wickedness that festers within.

[EaraGrace]

I don’t remember entirely so my memory might need to be refreshed, but i don’t recall ascians having involvement in the nations that invaded the original garlean territories and pushed them into uninhabitable territory.

I don’t think they become the Garleans without Emets manipulation. It was 800 years ago they held Corvos, but we’re to act as if they have some inherent right to it?

I’m just gonna echo Fourchenault on the “justice” of reclaiming Corvos

Fourchenault: Those unfamiliar with history would believe they have always resided in the bitter cold climes of northern Ilsabard, but that was only after the Corvosi invaded eight hundred years prior.
With the advent of magitek, I imagine it was all too easy for Emperor Solus to rally his people and take back what they believed to be rightfully theirs.
Yet history would tell us true─that the land they call Locus Amoenus has been known by other names, and served as home to myriad peoples.
Indeed, one need only look back to the Allagans' reign in the Third Astral Era to give the lie to Garlean claims of sovereignty.
Yet even had they such ancestral ties to Locus Amoenus, antecedence cannot justify their animosity to foreign peoples.
Animosity poorly veiled by delusions of justice, as has been the case for so many nations throughout history. Would that man had the sense and strength of will to break free from such chains of hatred.

And once again, none of this proves the Sundered are biologically predisposed to war. That’s never been suggested.

The fact that we're left to assume they couldn't have reasonably come up with a solution to that dilemma if they had actually known about it is one of the other things that bugs me.

People are often unreasonable, especially in regards to their selfish interests. This is true of irl, the Sumdered, and the Unsundered. It doesn’t bug me simply because I think the groundwork is there to justify why this choice in particular, this dilemma, this problem, is not solvable by them. Others disagree, but this is ultimately subjective.

Which is why I would've preferred that they had simply made Venat get her memories wiped also (And made whatever other requisite changes in writing that stemmed from that) so that it never felt like a possibility in the first place and there was literally no hope/chance for things to play out differently (Even if the causal loop had already dictated such).

I think that would’ve cheapened the choice but to each their own.

Yes you can, considering Emet's style of acisan is to merely give people the tools for chaos and sit back and let them hang themselves. He simply gave them the weapons to act on their racism and slights from eight centuries ago. A flowery speech here and there about pride and they were off to the racist races. I doubt he had much hand in Allag, considering Xande was the ruler and he barely knew anything about omega. Again he is pretty hands off when it comes to spreading chaos.

I think we wouldn’t be so willing to conclude this if we applied this same criteria to other situations.

If I gave an insane man a gun, told him where he could find someone to kill, intended for him to follow through, but never directly told him to do so, would I be innocent?

I think we should all ask Tiamat if the Ascians are truly blameless. The ones manipulated of course share the lions share, but the Ascians manipulations were clearly wrong. Full stop.

[Kozh]

Ironworks

At the (potential) expense of the people who live in New Worlds, Meracydia or people who aren't onboard with the plan overall. These people who already exists and born into the world, that if the time travel do erase their timeline, would disappear.

Estinien

Doesn't change the fact that many dragons had died due to his obsession with revenge before this. And estinien is just but one example of people obsessed with revenge.

The Shards

Idk, maybe don't sunder in the first place and instead tell her brethren the truth?? Or if at the very least, why not create a loporrits on the Shards moon too? Have them research into ways to hop over to the shards? Idk, anything other than "go to sleep after doing maintenance once in a while for 12k years".

And where exactly is your proof? I’ve never once seen you offer a single textual source for your assertions.

The fact that they chose the word "nurture our star till it burst with vitality". If they're strictly talk about the Ancients live, why not just told us that straight away? Why not use words such as "repopulate"? And logically, won't using creatures born from their magic will be more efficient and faster? Because in the end of the day, it's a matter of offering enough aether to Zodiark to replenished the 75% Ancients population inside Him should they be released. Why does it *have* to be the Ancients soul?

Do you not think that it’d be pretty out there for him to be talking about animals here?

Not really, because the Ancients held every life blessed with soul from the star in high regard. And considering they already made a precursor to some of the beast tribes, who exhibit intelligence and language recognition, not weird for them to consider it as "new life who may have a right over the star, but won't be able to defend the star if the calamity returns".

Take those same people and give them creation magicks and mastery over the world and see what happens.

The wars and violence gets way worse

[Kozh]

The average human has enough transplantable organs to save five others. So the question is, would you kill one to get the organs to save five?

Boy, I would do it even for one person

[RayneBoemir]

Venat tried to reason with her people they didn’t listen, and all they wanted was to forget what was happening, and take a shortcut to where they were as before literally sacrificing the land for it.

[Kozh]

Gdi I forgot how annoying it is to reply using mobile version.

Anyway, the rest of my answers:

Then why aren’t you doing so. Five lives are at stake, you better hurry.

???? What is this even supposed to mean??

She did the right thing.

She *believes* she did the right thing.

[RayneBoemir]

If that's the standard, I guess the sundered need another round of sundering then

Let's see, the Ironworks of 8UC who risked the whole word to dissappear. The Eorzean, Ala Mhigans and Domans who's willing to kill conscripted soldier to take back their lost freedom instead of "moving on". People in general who went ahead with their revenge for their loss (e.g estinien killing nidhogg, etc.). And many others. In fact, the sundered are more prone to violence than the unsundered.

As I've said before, we use our standard as mortal to unfairly judge the Ancients. We say "those lives have been lost, move on", because in real world, there's zero chance people coming back to life. That's not the case with the Ancients, probably. They have the means to bring back those they have lost, it's not a zero chance. You're telling me that we won't do the same should it's also the case for us or the sundered?

Ah yes, venat is so deeply empathized that she chose to not tell anyone about the final days, and prefer being vague as hell even when confronting the Ancients regarding their ""mistake"".

That is a terrible outlook how can you sacrifice other lives whether human or not to fulfill your selfish desires.

The Ascians view the sundered as imperfect life and unworthy of living inheriting their world as I recalled, not so much disimilar to how some human races view other human races and animals.

The game touches on a lot of subjects pertaining to how humanity functions as a species.

[PawPaw]

Venat tried to reason with her people they didn’t listen, and all they wanted was to forget what was happening, and take a shortcut to where they were as before literally sacrificing the land for it.

When exactly did she do this? And please don't use that music video as evidence as nothing in that represents actual events. And let's say that she did spring from the woodwork after 75% of her people had been killed and tried to spew platitudes at them in some offscreen scene we never saw. Who did she tell before the worst possible scenario occurred? How do you explain absolutely no one knowing what the cause of the Final Days was if she tried her best to communicate and reason with them prior? We know for a fact that the Convocation did not know, nor did her own allies such as the Watcher know. So who did she offer warnings and reasoning to, exactly?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Venat tried to reason with her people they didn’t listen, and all they wanted was to forget what was happening, and take a shortcut to where they were as before literally sacrificing the land for it.

Where are you getting this exactly? She had the knowledge to tell them BEFORE THE FINAL DAYS HIT and she kept quiet and said nothing. They didn’t sacrifice any land, please play through ShB and EW again. They sacrificed their own lives to save the planet. The only iffy sacrifice was the 3rd sacrifice which wasn’t sacrificing land, it was sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back those lost. Where does it say they would forget what happened? We know the event is literally scarred onto their souls, they couldn’t forget if they wanted to. I really wish yall would quit with the blatant misinformation and headcanon.

[EaraGrace]

At the (potential) expense of the people who live in New Worlds, Meracydia or people who aren't onboard with the plan overall. These people who already exists and born into the world, that if the time travel do erase their timeline, would disappear.

Except your argument wasn't that 8UC Ironworks committed a morally questionable action, but that their actions were analogous to the Ancients'. I explained why these two aren't one to one. If you wish to discuss whether the Ironworks did something wrong then we can certainly do so, but as it stands this doesn't undermine the difference I mentioned. To put clearly, the Ironworks of that timeline would never benefit from what they were doing, only others would, whereas the Ancients would be the ones who uniquely stand to benefit. Do you disagree?

Doesn't change the fact that many dragons had died due to his obsession with revenge before this. And estinien is just but one example of people obsessed with revenge.

I believe the story was very clear on its views of that.

Idk, maybe don't sunder in the first place and instead tell her brethren the truth?? Or if at the very least, why not create a loporrits on the Shards moon too? Have them research into ways to hop over to the shards? Idk, anything other than "go to sleep after doing maintenance once in a while for 12k years".

Ok she told them. Now what? They still need to reduce their aetheric density and seal away Zodiark.

And Yoshi P has already said the others moons have something up with them. We just don't know whats going on there, and as it stands our only source was the Watcher, who is obviously limited in what he knows.

The fact that they chose the word "nurture our star till it burst with vitality". If they're strictly talk about the Ancients live, why not just told us that straight away? Why not use words such as "repopulate"? And logically, won't using creatures born from their magic will be more efficient and faster? Because in the end of the day, it's a matter of offering enough aether to Zodiark to replenished the 75% Ancients population inside Him should they be released. Why does it *have* to be the Ancients soul?

Because it has to be an equivalent soul? Otherwise Zodiark would be massively weakened in a way the Sundering did not?

Now, lets walk through why exactly I believe the Ancients would sacrifice intelligent life in order to retrieve their friends.

We first have Hyth's statement, which I quoted before.



Then we have Emets modus operandi.



Some have argued that this is just the Unsundered changing their plan. However, two problems emerge with this argument. First, once again (Emet created) Hyth says



While differing interpretations abound, lets keep this particular line in mind when combined with the fact now know that the souls in Zodiark are aware of events up to their imprisonment and their current situation. This leaves us with two possibilities. Either Emet stuck with the original plan and is working on seeing it to fruition, or, he has deviated but does not believe that the souls in Zodiark will mind the killing of innocents. Either one is quite frankly horrific morally speaking.

(1/2)