if we got a brand new DRK fresh from the ground up this is the baseline i'd want

[Sqwall]

ummm.... ok....

I'll bite.

This would be a nightmare to play. Just the shear amount of "torment gauge" I need to use the skills that use it numbers in the 400's That means I would need to spam the torment gains like crazy to even get close to a semblance of a rotation. Now this is a mere observation and is more a personal problem rather then a wide spread issue.

Let's move on.

Unholy Light (if i'm understanding this right) would straight up nearly DELETE a tank if used during a raid wide AOE. Average raidwide does anywhere from 30-40k damage if unmitigated...averaged amount.
35k * 7 party members = 245,000 damage or 5,250HP per party member to be "absorbed".
15% absorb "cover" = 36,750 HP total absorbed by party raid wide.

36,750 + 35,000 (tanks hit) = 71,750 total HP lost to the DRK with this defensive utility. I would NEVER use this skill when reprisal is hands down better for healer resources, and I won't get killed by an auto following the raid wide.

Reprisal 10% damage mitigation for entire party.
35,000 HP per party member - 10% = 31,500 HP lost per party member
I stay above 50% HP rather then go to <20% HP. This is why Cover is never used.....it can sometimes kill you. And the healer doesn't have to focus you spending more MP to keep you alive AND then heal the party. (while I do think tanks need to be hit harder...but this is just masochistic levels of "I need a challenge")

This job has not one...not two...but 3 different forms of resources to manage.

HP - Used to provide defensive cooldowns
MP - Used on a "TBN"
Torment - Used on virtually everything in the kit.

I understand what you're trying to do with sacrifice HP to deal damage or protect yourself. But this would never fly in a savage setting. While healers would be able to circumvent this quite easily, but I highly doubt there MP would hold out as they have more to do then watch as your HP goes wildly back and forth. This would be...annoying.

There is NO MP regen available on the job and the current rate of most DRK's MP regen I think is 300mp/3 sec. Which this would be 30 seconds just to cast the TBN clone once, which gives me the ability to use a hard hitting AOE with damage drop off, and it also costs 50 gauge. Of which I need to go through two 1-2-3 rotations to get 50 gauge, which would take 15 seconds with a 2.5 sks, but I have to wait an additional 15 seconds until I have enough MP to cast the "tbn" clone.

I get the idea...but this is why it's hard to design a job, and they spend close to nearly a year or year and a half designing these jobs that ALSO have to interact with other jobs in the game.

This also basically feels like RPR.

Keep at it and don't give up. Sometimes the dev's listen.

[pikalovr]

thats the thing even only using the unholy light which A never happens and B you'd still technically live it the more it gets mitigated the less it overall is which is the thing it allows you to heal up for raidwides potentially even full HP and then can immediately bring yourself back to low HP to keep up your damage bonuses thats the point you want to be at high HP for as little time as possible

secondly there is not 3 guages to manage you can lierally use DMB (dark magic barrier) whenever as long as you're not overcapping and saving at least 3k for burst window (hoping it pops for free torments blade proc) or oh shit moments

C i already brought this up in another reply but the potency of the healing should be equal to if not slightly above ( slightly above for optimal play of course) the cost of using skills under torments unleashed with your utility skills like vampire's kiss allowing you to get yourself up to breakpoints like the 50% HP needed to reset your torment timer without needing alot of healer intervention maybe at most one oGCD

i also don't get your issue with DMB giving torments blade it makes it free a more than fair trade off imo for the wait (torments blade is supposed to be the iggest damaging ability in kit it's meant to be your big single target hit but i add in AOE capabilities to make it worth using in mob pulls as well) it's meant more as a reward for using it properly (shielding teamamtes or yourself for big damage attacks/raidwides) and using it for burst windows since that opens up another 50 guage to use for fall from heaven and shadows unbound or just flat out another torments blade

also at most you can use every ability rn for barely above 100guage which is good and honestly i would like more guage options if they decided to keep a blood guage/torment guage system give us more things to spend guage on make us think about what we really want to save/use rn should we for example save 100 guage for a nuke or spend 50 on a smaller nuke and save the other 50 for damage buffs for the burst window coming up etc...

[Sqwall]

also at most you can use every ability rn for barely above 100guage which is good and honestly i would like more guage options if they decided to keep a blood guage/torment guage system give us more things to spend guage on make us think about what we really want to save/use rn should we for example save 100 guage for a nuke or spend 50 on a smaller nuke and save the other 50 for damage buffs for the burst window coming up etc...

Then I would continue to stay in the vein of let's add more without diluting the main goal of the job.

Look at the job objectively and see what works well and what could be enhanced.

Personally I would rather rather the current TBN give me some MP if it didn't break. Say like 600 MP as a consolation price.

Or if it were to break grant black blood instead of Dark Arts, as I feel dark arts is just...meh.

Dark Arts is now granted when using Blood Spiller, this allows for Delerium burst to weave Bloodspiller, free edge, bloodspiller, free edge, bloodspiller free edge. Your downtime after burst you need to spend MP to weave edge and every 50 gauge you get a free edge, until your burst comes back around.

Using your Dark Arts charge also procs Salt and Darkness.

Weaponskills used while under the effect of Blood Weapons charges reduce the timer on Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain by 5 seconds each hit. Total of 25 Seconds reduced of timer.


Dark Arts can now be allocated to 2 charges.

Your shadow can now cast TBN on you, and you gain the dark arts.

When your Shadow now casts abyssal drain it now heals you and party members within 10 yalms of your character or shadow.

When your shadow uses Carve and spit you now gain the MP.

Things I would remove-

The stupid Unmend Trait that barely complements the job at all.

Replace with-

Carve and Spit/ Abyssal Drain have an additional charge added. For total of 2 charges for each ability. 60 sec cooldown. Your Shadow is granted this trait.

IDK...just some ideas I can think of that would enhance the job now? None of are connected in some for or fashion and adding ANYONE of these would fundamentally change how the job interacts or plays.

[pikalovr]

if you want to talk current dark there's alot that needs ot be done

first off TBN should be purely a CD based defensive ability still proccing edge of shadow (or hell i'd even argue shadowbringer now)

secondly make blood weapon and delirium cost darkside timer to use (15-20seconds per ability) (actually giving it a use and a reason to actually refresh it)

thirdly as a counter balance and to help not change opener too much i would add an ogcd that gives darkside by itself on a relatively long CD so it's usable every say 4 mins basically still allow you to prepull blood weapon and delirium if you so choosed, also allows you to recover after death alot easier

defensively we're fine tbh although i would like C&S to have a decent heal tied to it since they wanna tie it and abyssal drain together

my changes are more so aimed at creating a constant engine for DRK there's always something to do some form of generating and spending resources you spend MP to get blood weapon and delirium up which not only help your guage go up but replenish the MP you spent getting hte darkside then you spend the MP to generate the darkside needed for bloodweapon/delirium leaving the guage more for esteem (which is a whole nother story) and delirium off time cause delirium would still be on a decently long CD (40seconds) and blood weapon being more spammable so to speak (20 second CD so there is some downtime and helps you fill the guage during hte delirium downtimes)

esteem if he's gonna use a preset rotation should grant all beneficial effects to you. that should've been done when it was released (or make him only copy our moves after a slight delay)

they can further improve on this system by adding more spenders that in return give another resource to help you achieve like i said an engine you're still 1-2-3ing but now have somehing to keep you busy during downtime while still being able to optimize for burst windows that to me is DRKs biggest downfall rn is nothing to do outside of our 1min burst and 2 min burst windows

[Mikey_R]

literally read the kit jesus christ

Torments unleashed- DRK enters a rage after tormenting himself (100 gauge cost) setting his HP to 5% of max (3 second invuln) all abilities/actions now consume 3% max HP to use (goes through your shield) and grant 5 gauge per usage as well lasts 1 minute 2 mins CD

3% MAX HP PER ACTION/ABILITY USED IT IS A SET PERCENT OF MAX HP PURELY CAUSE GEAR AND LEVEL HP DIFFERENCES EXIST

Bleeding heart- applies a x potency DOT to yourself for 30 seconds gaining 15% potency bonus in return for the DOT duration 1min CD

That has a potency, that is affected by stats and I'm pretty sure an equal increase in Strength/Vitality is not going to equate to the same % HP lost, ie. the Dot either gets relatively weaker, or relatively stronger.

The same applies to healing effects, however, since Healing uses a different formula, it is not as much of an issue.

secondly yes it's the healers job to make sure you don't die but if they're beneing you immediately after using say unleashed, after knowing what your kit does that is not YOUR kits fault that is the fault on the WHMs part for not learning what your kit does it's the same thing that affects AST card prios based on burst windows if you know the 1 min burst window for NIN is coming up you make sure if you have a melee card it goes to them MCH wild fire coming up? hand them the ranged card etc..

These things have to work in more than just raid settings, which is always why I try and refrain from talking about specific raid scenarios, however, your average WHM is not going to keep track of it, your average DRK isn't going to comunicate when they use it. It is just punishing for the average party.

You are also almost required to have Vampire's Kiss or use Dark Magic Barrier to use it safely, but going through how it is going to play out (Assume VK has equivalent healing), Torment's Blade (5% HP)> Vampire's Kiss > GCD (5%) > GCD (5%) > Invuln wears off. Of course, you have the healing/shield from your GCDs, however, they are not very strong and so really are not going to be healing you enough to bring you to a safe HP value. If you have to use DMB, you are just delaying the time between the invuln wearing off and you still being low HP. Why am I bringing this up? You have essentially neutered your HP that now requires you to be healed by a healer to have any sort of survivability and this is WITH the healing cooldown, which is healing everything you lose exactly. This also does not take into account the action Bleeding Heart which is just more damage on yourself, which could just wipe out any benefit from your GCD healing and weaken shields. You are in a vulnerable state with no way out. Again, make the healing too high and you effectively make healers useless.

But how does this differ to say, Superbolide? Easy, Superbolide is not part of a normal rotation, it is used for tank busters where Healers tend to use their potent healing, plus, GNB can help with HoC (for the Excog healing effect) and Aurora for a decent chunk of HP regen whilst being invulnerable for 10 seconds. It is no extra stress on a healer as they have already saved cooldowns for the tank buster anyway. How about Living Dead? After 6.1, from my understanding, DRKs can heal themselves for close to, if not all of their HP. I have not actually used it for myself, so this is just from what I have heard. Of course, it is no longer a burden on healer resources, however, before 6.1 and popping Walking Dead, this is essentially what Torment's Unleashed is, the big difference here is, the DRK still couldn't die, so you had time to heal HP, in your case, there is none of that AND it is used every 2 minutes.

a players inability or more so laziness to not adapt is not an excuse to say a kit is flawed or won't work well

There is a difference between a lazy player and an action that is just badly designed. TU is an action designed for a raid setting where you tax a healers healing capabilities. There is no benefit to this, there is no reason for this to exist, it is just bad design. It might work in a single player setting, where you have control, but not in an MMO like FFXIV.

also the HP gain being neutral is key as i stated healers don't have to babysit you cause you can remain at a stable HP if you're playing well (not including the fact there is alot of single player content without any NPC healers as well) and the management comes form the fact you are still a tank you still need to make sure you can eat the timer reset and survive with little to no healer assistance (you're still at way more risk without coordianting with your healer) you still need to make sure you have enough HP before the raidwide to eat your allies damage taken that is where the HP/defensive management comes in making sure you're at a stable HP at all times to not die to auto attacks and making sure you know when and what healing/defensive options you have to prepare yourself for bigger hits

Except your HP is not stable. Having it go up and down as a result of you damaging yourself and then healing it back up is not stable. It is not something a healer can plan around. You say the healing is neutral but in the same paragraph say you need to make sure you have enough HP to survive, which implies you have a way to either give yourself more HP quickly, which is contradictory to neutral HP gain, or you have to hold back your HP draining moves, which then comes with it's own issues of, are they going to fall out of buff windows, could it misalign other things in your own rotation etc. It is just a mess.

also for the love of god learn how actual class making/balancing works you can in no way shape or form give an accurate represention/know majority of the flaws of how it'll work in a team based game without being able to test it in game first why do you think PTRs and the such exist? it's almost as if even "flawless" kits that work on paper with the game and it's systems can still be majorly flawed when put into practice cause on paper and in the field are two completely different animals

You do not just throw something together, code it and see what happens, you do exactly what I said, you look at the idea, think critically about how it would affect gameplay, are there things we can see now that we should address before we take the time to code it up. It is a much easier and quicker way to weed out potentially bad ideas which saves time and money in the long run. All idea start out as pen and paper, but not all get to the end stage of being tested, why do you think that is? To take this to an extreme, I can say the gameplay should be 1 button, just spam that to get through fights. Of course, there are glaringly obvious issues with this but it also means there is going to be no skill expression involved (ignoring some's ability to not get bored) which means everything will perform the same, perfect balance in the jobs, all that is left is player skill. Should I really take the time to code this knowing that it has all these flaws?

Again, THINK about the good in your ideas and the bad. THINK about how it would affect the gameplay, how is it going to look if I actually use it, how is it going to affect my gameplay, how is it going to affect others, how does it stack up to others in the same role etc. As it stands, this idea will not work and the main issue is with Torment's Unleashed. That is where you should start in improving the experience, you clearly want it to be the main focal ability, so make it something that stand out as a button you want to press, not something you are hesitant to do as your healer might not be on the ball.

I also suggest not draining HP, that comes with too many headachess with balancing, which I have already scratched the surface of, as I said, there is a reason DRK uses MP and not HP when it traditionally used HP.

[Titoulakikoute]

they took 10 years to change living dead, honestly guys just accept that the dark knight will remain as such in future expansions, with just another else new random gcds or ogcds like shadowbringer and Salt and Darkness

[pikalovr]

they took 10 years to change living dead, honestly guys just accept that the dark knight will remain as such in future expansions, with just another else new random gcds or ogcds like shadowbringer and Salt and Darkness

oh trust me i have 0 faith in the balance team at most they'll finally get around to fixing the other issues most DRKs have been complaining about for years now and prolly not even fix them properly like with LD

also doesn't help we have people like hte guy who posted above you who literally says a more complex/interesting kit is bad cause casual healers are too lazy to even read others kits. like maybe maybe there's a reason we have multiple tanks if you don't like healing DRK get them to play another tank so you can go back to being braindead and hitting the one DPS button you have. i'm sick and tired of all skill expression and potnetial for complexity/interesting kits being shafted cause people are too lazy to learn or get better.

[Mikey_R]

also doesn't help we have people like hte guy who posted above you who literally says a more complex/interesting kit is bad cause casual healers are too lazy to even read others kits.

Never said you couldn't have a complex kit, never said you couldn't have an interesting kit, I was just stating how your kit just does not work in reality. Should a healer really have to keep track of your kit during a dungeon so that they know when you are about to suicide yourself? Bear in mind, people of vastly different abilities play the game, so your complex kit that relies on someone else to pay attention, are you really willing to take that risk?

Your idea is not complex and I wouldn't say it is interesting, I would say it is a hinderance on the job and I guarantee that if something like that were to come into the game, people would want changes. I have told you want I feel the issues are, I have shown you the downfalls of the idea from different perspectives, however, an idea is not going to improve if you just ignore the feedback and criticisms and ignore it.

I don't like changing people's ideas as they are not mine, however, just looking at TU, these are the main downfalls, the massive initial HP cost and the fact it drains your HP continuously. You could probably get away with a smaller HP investment as an initial startup and drop the HP drain, OR get rid of the initial HP cost and make it a HP drain. I do not feel it should last 1 minute, that is too long, at that point you start to think, can it not just be a permanent damage buff? So I would shorten that to ~15 seconds. The fact it also relied heavily upon other actions so that you did not die I would also say is a detriment, but that is solved just from tweaking the action.

Now, while I have made it known that I do not think HP draining mechanics on a tank are a good idea, I would change it so something like this:

100 gauge cost, takes 10% of your HP to use, provides 10% damage buff, keep the extra gauge on attack, and provide a regen of 100 potency over 15 seconds.

This has essentially turned it into your burst skill as opposed to an action that basically allows everything to give 5 more gauge per attack, which, once you break it down, it really isn't that impressive considering the massive detriment to your character. The regen is there and using very rough maths, the 100 potency over 15 seconds should be enough to cover the initial HP drain, just restored over time.

I would say this alone makes it far more interesting and it is not nearly as detrimental to your survivability as your initial idea. Other things to think about, if you want it to act more as a draining attack, have it be an attack that deals damage and gives the enemy a debuff that, when you attack it, you restore HP, obviously taking away the regen. You can add additional effects like, being able to use all gauge attacks without them using up gauge for one time (ie. you can use Torment's Blade for free once per TU cooldown period).

Would you not say something like that is far more interesting as an action and dependant on other actions, could make things more complex, especially when trying to line up burst phases. It also doesn't matter what skill level the healer is (as long as they were not completely incompetent) as you don't suicide yourself and have to add an invuln to make sure you do not die straight away.

Again, I am pretty much opposed to a tank that takes their own HP as a resource, however, I believe the ideas I have shown are a far more balanced and reasonable way to approach the issue. This is what I am getting at and what I have been trying to say. Take the criticisms, learn what they are and try and improve on them if they seem reasonable.

Also, go ahead and pick apart what I've said, is there anything you feel from this revised idea that is lacking (probably, I was literally thinking as I was typing this post)? Anything you want to tweak? Just want to say it is complete and utter trash and why have I been so stupid? Go ahead. Oh, and to add to what I normally say about criticising your own ideas, the only one I can think of that stands out is the same thing that plagues all HP drain actions, what if you do not have enough HP to use it, do you just kill yourself (probably not) or are you just unable to use it, leading to it being delayed and potentially messing up burst windows (most likely). I would also say that taking both HP and gauge is a bit much, but I wanted to stick to the original as close as possible, however, I would just have it take HP and leave the gauge alone, having gauge when you activate it and combining that with the ability to use actions at no gauge cost once, you can make an incredibly powerful burst window that requires gauge management, so there is more complexity there for you.

[pikalovr]

leading to it being delayed and potentially messing up burst windows (most likely). I would also say that taking both HP and gauge is a bit much, but I wanted to stick to the original as close as possible, however, I would just have it take HP and leave the gauge alone, having gauge when you activate it and combining that with the ability to use actions at no gauge cost once, you can make an incredibly powerful burst window that requires gauge management, so there is more complexity there for you.

THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE KIT AND WHY IT WORKS THE WAY IT DOES IF YOU DON'T MANAGE YOUR HP CORRECTLY YOU GET PUNISHED BY NOT HAVING OPTIMAL DPS (EITHER BY DROPPING TU OR NOT BEING ABLE TO APPLY THE DOT ON YOURSELF FOR THE DAMAGE INCREASE) OR FORCING YOUR HEALER TO HELP YOU MORE THAN THEY SHOULD (WHICH SHOULD MOSTLY ONLY BE FOR RAIDWIDES TBS AND RESETTING TIMER IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE PLAYING WITH SUPER LOW HP)

YOU'VE LITERALLY OVERLOOKED THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE KIT THIS ENTIRE TIME

AND ONCE AGAIN NO THE HEALER DOESN'T HAVE TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR KIT JUST KNOW WHAT YOUR KIT SI LIKE HOLY HELL ARE YOU ACTUALLY STUPID? I DON'T RMEMBER EVERY SINGLE ABILITY IN EVERY KIT WHEN I PLAYED AST BUT I UNDERSTAND THE BASIS OF THEM AND THEIR BURST WINDOWS YOU JUST APPLY THAT FORM OF THINKING TO THIS KIT AS A HEALER ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS DRK IS DAMAGING HIMSELF FOR DAMAGE BUFFS AND HE NEEDS TO BE ABOVE 50% HP EVERY 50SECONDS AFTER TU. DON'T LET HIM GET IN THE DANGER ZONE (5/10% DEPENDING ON HOW HARD THE FIGHT IS) AND IF YOU SEE A HUGE DROP IN HP AND NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED THAT COULD CAUSE IT THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO HEAL HIM TO FULL. HELL I ALREADY SAID YOU SHOULD AT LEAST THROW AN OGCD HEAL ON HIM WHEN HE ENTERS TU ANYWAYS SO THE ENTIRE LOW HP POINT IS MOOT

ALSO PEOPLE ASK FOR CHANGES FOR MORE SHIT TO DO NOT FOR MORE DUMBED DOWN LET'S MAKE IT EASIER FOR EVERYONE KITS. IF YOU ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION TO WHAT PEOPLE WANTED YOU'D UNDERSTAND WHY THIS KIT WOULD BE A NICE CHANGE OF PACE FOR THE GAME

YOU HAVE 3 OTHER TANKS TO PLAY IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THE HEALERS WHO WANT TO BE BRAINDEAD AND PUSH1 DPS BUTTON OVER AND OVER WAR BASICALLY ALREADY SUSTAINS HIMSELF THROUGH ALL CONTENT ASIDE FROM TBS

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KIT THE SHIELD HEALING AND REGENS ALLOWS IT TO REMAIN HP NEUTRAL (AHEAD HP WISE WHEN USING UTILITY SKILLS LIKE VK) WHICH MEANS HEALERS DON'T HAVE TO BABYSIT YOU UNLESS YOU MESS UP WHICH THEY'D HAVE TO DO ANYWAYS REGARDLESS OF KIT

LITERALLY EVERY POINT YOU HAVE BROUGHT UP MEANS NOTHING CAUSE THE KIT WORKS IN A VACCUM AS IT SHOULD FOR A HP BASED KIT AND IF THE HEALER HELPS YOU WITH SAY RESETTING YOUR TU TIMER THATS CALLED WORKING TOGETHER YOU KNOW WORKING AS A TEAM AND GIVING THE HEALER A REASON TO PUSH THEIR HEAL OUTSIDE THEIR SCRIPTED BUTTON PRESSES THATS NOT CAUSE SOMEBODY MESSED UP

[Mikey_R]

1. THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE KIT AND WHY IT WORKS THE WAY IT DOES IF YOU DON'T MANAGE YOUR HP CORRECTLY YOU GET PUNISHED BY NOT HAVING OPTIMAL DPS (EITHER BY DROPPING TU OR NOT BEING ABLE TO APPLY THE DOT ON YOURSELF FOR THE DAMAGE INCREASE) OR FORCING YOUR HEALER TO HELP YOU MORE THAN THEY SHOULD (WHICH SHOULD MOSTLY ONLY BE FOR RAIDWIDES TBS AND RESETTING TIMER IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE PLAYING WITH SUPER LOW HP)

YOU'VE LITERALLY OVERLOOKED THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE KIT THIS ENTIRE TIME

2. AND ONCE AGAIN NO THE HEALER DOESN'T HAVE TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR KIT JUST KNOW WHAT YOUR KIT SI LIKE HOLY HELL ARE YOU ACTUALLY STUPID? I DON'T RMEMBER EVERY SINGLE ABILITY IN EVERY KIT WHEN I PLAYED AST BUT I UNDERSTAND THE BASIS OF THEM AND THEIR BURST WINDOWS YOU JUST APPLY THAT FORM OF THINKING TO THIS KIT AS A HEALER ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS DRK IS DAMAGING HIMSELF FOR DAMAGE BUFFS AND HE NEEDS TO BE ABOVE 50% HP EVERY 50SECONDS AFTER TU. DON'T LET HIM GET IN THE DANGER ZONE (5/10% DEPENDING ON HOW HARD THE FIGHT IS) AND IF YOU SEE A HUGE DROP IN HP AND NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED THAT COULD CAUSE IT THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO HEAL HIM TO FULL. HELL I ALREADY SAID YOU SHOULD AT LEAST THROW AN OGCD HEAL ON HIM WHEN HE ENTERS TU ANYWAYS SO THE ENTIRE LOW HP POINT IS MOOT

3. ALSO PEOPLE ASK FOR CHANGES FOR MORE SHIT TO DO NOT FOR MORE DUMBED DOWN LET'S MAKE IT EASIER FOR EVERYONE KITS. IF YOU ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION TO WHAT PEOPLE WANTED YOU'D UNDERSTAND WHY THIS KIT WOULD BE A NICE CHANGE OF PACE FOR THE GAME

4. YOU HAVE 3 OTHER TANKS TO PLAY IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THE HEALERS WHO WANT TO BE BRAINDEAD AND PUSH1 DPS BUTTON OVER AND OVER WAR BASICALLY ALREADY SUSTAINS HIMSELF THROUGH ALL CONTENT ASIDE FROM TBS

5. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KIT THE SHIELD HEALING AND REGENS ALLOWS IT TO REMAIN HP NEUTRAL (AHEAD HP WISE WHEN USING UTILITY SKILLS LIKE VK) WHICH MEANS HEALERS DON'T HAVE TO BABYSIT YOU UNLESS YOU MESS UP WHICH THEY'D HAVE TO DO ANYWAYS REGARDLESS OF KIT

6. LITERALLY EVERY POINT YOU HAVE BROUGHT UP MEANS NOTHING CAUSE THE KIT WORKS IN A VACCUM AS IT SHOULD FOR A HP BASED KIT AND IF THE HEALER HELPS YOU WITH SAY RESETTING YOUR TU TIMER THATS CALLED WORKING TOGETHER YOU KNOW WORKING AS A TEAM AND GIVING THE HEALER A REASON TO PUSH THEIR HEAL OUTSIDE THEIR SCRIPTED BUTTON PRESSES THATS NOT CAUSE SOMEBODY MESSED UP

1. You said the damage and healing is essentially neutral, that means you really don't have control over your health, your healers do. If you damage yourself only to heal it back up, almost straight away, it is the same as not having that effect at all, so the only thing that now influences your HP is the healer.

2. They do if you are about to delete your HP. They will either need to save an, oGCD to get you out, or spend a GCD to heal you and this is potentially outside of a tank buster. No other tank has this limitation on healers. Also, you say they do not need to keep track, then in the next sentence say that, once their HP plummets, they just need to know that 50 seconds later they are about to do it again, that is the definition of keeping track. You have contradicted yourself.

3. How has anything I said implied dumbing things down? I have merely stated the opinion that it would not work as well as you seem to think, the main cause being Torment Unleashed. If you want to make a job difficult to play, go ahead, however you still need to consider how it can affect the gameplay of others, remembering that not everyone is good enough to raid. Is it really good design to have an ability that works well in a raid setting but has disastrous results as soon as you get randoms?

4. And I predict the vast majority of players would play the other 3 tanks due to the much better survivability they provide. Remember, your tank would not do that much more than the others, so if it has too many downsides, noone will play it in raids either.

5. So, getting into the territory of healers being useless? FYI, WAR cannot sustain themselves in any sort of difficult content, so they do still require a healer.

6. Working in a vacuum is not a good measurement, you have to look at how it would interact with other people, how would it affect being in an encounter, etc. You can make anything work in a vacuum, but not everything works in the field. Also, you using TU and making healers heal you would just become part of their scripted button presses, so that changes nothing.

Have you not noticed that the only thing I have really criticised is Torment's Unleashed? How it is an incredibly high risk low reward ability? The one ability that requires many others in order to actually have some sort of chance at working? 50% of the time, your healing from your GCDs are effectively doing nothing, just recovering what you lose, what is the point? This one action alone is what is killing your kit. The fact you cannot see the downsides and are essentially just saying, that's a problem for the healer, the healer should get good etc. is just you not seeing the problem that is slapping you in the face.