The general direction of job changes is straight asinine. Literally NO ONE benefits.

[SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep]

At this point, it's plain obvious you guys COMPLETELY lost the plot.

We can all understand you guys have a massive influx of new players and wants to make game/content accessible.

However, you guys mistook for making the game accessible to making the game dumb and boring. You want to lower the FLOOR, not the CEILING.

This is why we have a forum absolutely filled with pissed off players. Anyone who is dedicated and likes your game are pissed off. SMN, NIN, SAM, MCH are not happy. MNK has been pissed off for months already. Look over to the other forum. You are bleeding healers. Every DC is literally bottlenecked on Healers. WTF do you think is that?

And casuals? The people you guys are supposedly pandering to? Those people who don't spend time optimising? Here's the kick. THEY DON'T CARE. They don't use DPS meters. They don't know the damage difference. It doesn't do shit. They are not going to say "Oh yay, my damage increased by x% because now I don't have to do y".

If you think depth and nuance in combat system is a detriment, you are delusional. It's the FLOOR. Not the CEILING. People get annoyed at not being able to play. They don't get annoyed at not being the best.

And it's not about casuals who "don't spend effort". Some day, those casuals would've played the game enough to invest more time and effort in. What do you think they going to find? END OF THE ROAD. Time to unsub.

There's no point playing different classes because it's not a different experience, it's just a different combo button being pressed. What's the fucking point?

You've pissed off the veteran players.

You've chopped off the longevity of the game for new/aspiring players.

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK at teaching players how to play jobs. And you compensate it by chopping the game down. Put in proper incentivised tutorial quests that slowly take players through the depth of your job/combat system. What do you have? A blabber of popup about job gauge. And you think the problem is complexity? HOLY SHIT. Seriously.

A low floor is fine. We've all done our fair share of carrying people who under perform. No one's giving them shit. We try to help. What do you think "community" is for? To help, teach and encourage aspiring new players. When there's nothing to aspire to, what do you think the "community' is going to do? Yeah, there's no need for it either. Game's dumb. Just spam precanned combos.

LOWER THE FLOOR. (if you want)

NOT THE CEILING.

[CKNovel]

TL;DR with politness:
Please lower the skill floor rather than the skill ceiling.
The community is getting impatient with the job direction, the lack of transparency just adds more salt to the wound.

We used to like the "Easy to learn, hard to master" aspect of the jobs. Yet you now take a complete different direction, going the Nintendo way, aka Spoon feeding the player.
We want to encounter difficult situation, please reconsider the job direction.
If you still refuse to provide tutorials about rotation, that is your choice but please don't impact the veterans by changing the job design rather than the tutorials.

For example, adding more DPS tools to healers would not change the skill floor, but it will severaly increase the skill ceiling while making the job engaging.

Thank you.

I do agree.

[YukiB]

No matter how simple the jobs get, some players just won't care enough to learn how to play it. You're more forgiving of them than I am. If there's anything I've learned from Crystal Tower raids, it's that some veteran players can't even manage a 1-2-3 combo.

Instead of helping these players, simplifying jobs will just demotivate players, old and new, who want interesting and engaging job mechanics.

Don't lower the ceiling, indeed. If you do, you're liable to crush us all.

Gosetsu was just the beginning.

[ShimAoki]

100% agree, sam nin and drg are next in this line of overhauling the jobs to make them "streamlined"

[EhvaTaco]

These petty, bitter posts don't help anyone when you generalize everything without giving proper, pointed suggestions.

SMN, NIN, SAM, MCH are not happy. MNK has been pissed off for months already. Look over to the other forum. You are bleeding healers. Every DC is literally bottlenecked on Healers.

You've pissed off the veteran players.

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK at teaching players how to play jobs.

Old SMN mains, me excluded, don't like the new version because they wanted to keep the messy, AI crippled mess from before. Not everyone wants change, instead they complain about it endlessly. Familiarity is something deeply integrated the human psychology. The SAM changes had the right goals in mind but they introduced new issues that change the job's game feel. From the outcry, the devs can learn from this and do better next time. Now as for healers, this isn't as clear cut. On one hand, you cannot expect a deep damage rotation from that job category. On the other, if you introduce too much of it, then you risk overwhelming healers in tight situations. And pointing out that this is why healers are so sought after is just not true. Healing in the vast majority of RPGs is simply a lesser populated role. Seeing big numbers on the screen is just a more appealing dopamine rush, something a healer cannot provide. Don't try to pin this on our devs.

Again, "veterans" are pissy because people don't want change. It's different and unfamiliar.

XIV's tutorials explain the basics of a role. Job specific stuff is explained in their respective job quests. You know, the story stuff that people are allergic to, in their super story-focused RPG. Granted, newer jobs do a better job at this. If you mean rotations, then this is just something the devs can't do very well. What if the players find better rotations or more optimal strategies? The tutorials would need to be updated constantly and this is just a massive time sink. I say it's better to leave this to the community to figure out. Teach each other and help improve together. It's a sort of agency that should remain so.
But whose to say the tutorials end there? From the game's early stages, it teaches you basic mechanics that are repeated throughout the whole game. Stacking, spreading, flares, following AOEs, etc. And the game does so by first introducing mechanics in a safe way, that rarely outright kill you for getting it wrong. Simply "punishing" you with a vuln stack at first. Then they build up on that and added new flavours to said mechanics. This isn't always true for every fight, since savage and such operate differently.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Old Summoner mains are ticked off because the class went from a piano to an abacus with three beads in complexity. If you want to play the new version, fine but recognize that any success with the new version is pointless. It's a caster that doesn't cast more than Samurai. Would you like to eat your red skittle or your green skittle next? It's such a hard decision, you poor you. Truly a full and complete rework; any harder and heads may explode. No don't think too hard, that's dangerous! Maybe they'll need to change it so that the order of skittles is set because an suboptimal choice is currently still possible.

Full history of Summoner for context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiD95kbP4Xo

As for tutorials, they are technically there beyond the Hall of Novices. It's what the class quests originally were beyond just setting lore. Unfortunately the introduction of the lower difficulty option made them redundant (arguably justified; the extensive reworks gutted tools that some of the class quests had been designed around ie Titan-egi tanking).

[Megguido]

Old SMN mains, me excluded, don't like the new version because they wanted to keep the messy, AI crippled mess from before. Not everyone wants change, instead they complain about it endlessly. Familiarity is something deeply integrated the human psychology.

Now, don't hit us with psychology and "human doesn't like change" lecture. SMN went from piano to snoozefest: The only decision a SMN needs to make every fight is "is it safe to stay still 5s to cast 2 red ruins, and then go to melee for 5s ?", every 60s or so. We had DoTs timings, Demi summons attacking in sync with us, DWT and Bahamut separated from each other so we have more flexibility over our burst phase, on-demand mobility and resource pooling with assaults and Ruin 4, and overall more oGCD buttons to press. For reference, I needed to lower my GCD as low as 2.23s with current SMN to match the number of actions per minute I used to do in 5.X at 2.48s.

The most crippling AI dumbfckery was ghosting when we summoned a demi too fast after a pet action, and it wasn't even fixed with the rework. They had to rework Searing Light entirely so we cast it directly, which they could have done back in july 2019. The other AI issues were pretty minor, like Phoenix ghosting its 8th Scarlet Flame because it spent too much time casting its AoE heal.

Lastly, we "old mains" don't necessarily want old SMN back, we just want a SMN that plays as a lvl 90 job, not a lvl 60. On the other hand, it makes the job attractive to a lot more people now, it's just sad for the couple of nerds that loved the playstyle. Bonus kek point : lvl 90 capstone ability is really just a flashier version of our lvl 30 ability with 100 potency on top.

[Sqwall]

I have played the OG SMN and outside of dungeon content. SMN was pretty "rough" to play. It had a fun playstyle, but it required waaaayyyy to much nuance to play. I just remember to having to delay a lot of my summons as I knew the boss was going to jump, or become un-targetable, or a phase transmission, or a raid wide stun, etc, etc. The point that I'm poorly trying to make is that SMN had an incredibly strict rotation. You fall out of that for like 5 seconds....NOTHING LINED UP. You had to play perfectly...every....single....pull...

The job was tuned for high level playstyle at level 50 onwards...at 80 you were being punished as if you screwed up your opener in faceroll content. Was it fun when it all clicked...sure I'll give you that. But when the poop hit the fan and you fell out of sync...it was like literally 3-4 min before you could sync it all back up again.

If I look at this objectively. This is still an iteration of the SMN we had at 80, but they literally doubled down on the Egi-Assaults and gave us an actual summoning each version while telling the summons what to do. Should they have removed the DOT's? I'm on the fence about this one. While I did like the DOT gameplay of tri-disaster and Bane, but I felt it ONLY provided greater benefits in an AOE setting.

That is what I liked about the DOT's, when you spread them out to a large pack of mobs. Then you go into EX or Savage....you hardly ever use Bane...if at all. You had to hard cast your Bio and Miasma after Bahamut phase to have it carry you to the next Firebird Trance, so the DOT's I felt were mis-used in the ShB version of SMN. Hell BRD get's Iron Jaws and can cast that literally ANY TIME, AND gave you the chance of a refulgent. If Tri-Disaster would have done that then people would complain SMN was to much like BRD... I digress.

This current version of SMN reminds me SOOOO much of FFXI version of SMN. Actually summoning your large size primals, they actually attack, they have crazy damage. The only difference is that in FFXI your summon stayed out for as long as your MP held out as your summons slowly drained your MP, and actions required MP to use.

I was not an expert by any means at 5.0 SMN, but I could play it well. I just didn't get stuck in the finite math needed to play it at GOD tier.

[JacobNewblood]

Now, don't hit us with psychology and "human doesn't like change" lecture. SMN went from piano to snoozefest: The only decision a SMN needs to make every fight is "is it safe to stay still 5s to cast 2 red ruins, and then go to melee for 5s ?", every 60s or so. We had DoTs timings, Demi summons attacking in sync with us, DWT and Bahamut separated from each other so we have more flexibility over our burst phase, on-demand mobility and resource pooling with assaults and Ruin 4, and overall more oGCD buttons to press. For reference, I needed to lower my GCD as low as 2.23s with current SMN to match the number of actions per minute I used to do in 5.X at 2.48s.

The most crippling AI dumbfckery was ghosting when we summoned a demi too fast after a pet action, and it wasn't even fixed with the rework. They had to rework Searing Light entirely so we cast it directly, which they could have done back in july 2019. The other AI issues were pretty minor, like Phoenix ghosting its 8th Scarlet Flame because it spent too much time casting its AoE heal.

Lastly, we "old mains" don't necessarily want old SMN back, we just want a SMN that plays as a lvl 90 job, not a lvl 60. On the other hand, it makes the job attractive to a lot more people now, it's just sad for the couple of nerds that loved the playstyle. Bonus kek point : lvl 90 capstone ability is really just a flashier version of our lvl 30 ability with 100 potency on top.

This, I played SMN from the end of Stormblood on.
When SHB came, I was happy to see the direction SMN went,
Was it a bit Janky? Yeah, it can be. Was I the best? No. But it was fun!
There was so much build-up to your Demis with gaining Ruin 4s.
Felt good to play right and "master." I loved the pet autos.

Then Endwalker Came.
Don't get me wrong; I don't hate this version; I just miss the old.

If I were to do something to SMN come EW, id give it the SCH faerie treatment+6.1,

Make the pet more responsive
make Searing come from us.
Make the Demis not follow us like lost puppies when summoned and stay still as they do now and auto themselves
make the Astral-based ruins we get from Bahamut come when we actually summon him with cast times and give us back Trance Spell speed Rasing and abilities.
~
That would remove Ghosting searing light and make the pet only responsible for its assaults if it was still ShB style.
It would reduce losing a demi auto cause they do already
will keep SMN mobile,
give us more gosh darn buttons to press
Keep da DoTs; they were fun to play with IMO (It doesn't matter to me too much)

TLDR:
They went overboard with the SMN rework. While it is nice, I do not hate it; I miss the old summoner. All they needed to do was give the pets the Faerie treatment, make searing come from us, and make the demise work the way they do now. There is no build-up anymore. It does not feel as satisfying.

[rewd]

These petty, bitter posts don't help anyone when you generalize everything without giving proper, pointed suggestions.

Old SMN mains, me excluded, don't like the new version because they wanted to keep the messy, AI crippled mess from before.

This has to be satire.