Machinist class is dead

[CKNovel]

I can only say that I don't think it is that easy.

Not to mention what even percentile do we focus on here? Median MCH might had already overtaken median BRD and DNC.

I've been raiding as a tank this tier and for extremes.
With no effort, 95%+ uptime was done when playing extremely safe and respecting every mechanic the best I could.
I wasn't even caring about uptime and this was my first tier as a tank (thought I previously played SAM).
I don't "think" it's easy, I am "sure" it's easy, by experience.

As for today's percentile, due to the patch they got reset and numbers will fluctuate, you will see numbers stabilizing themselves.
You also shouldn't look at median, a lot of them they include KO and damage down debuff.
It's like looking at the average speed of runners who fell during a race.

[gamerseb]

MCH floor is low, but the ceiling is also low. I'd love for MCH ceiling to be higher.

I wonder how the class would play if...

Wildfire was bumped up by a lot so it's very important to place it within buffs and not to lose it. Queen finishers were bumped up by a lot so it matters more when they happen. Regular damage was bumped down, so MCH becomes less about damage consistency and more playful with timing and buffs.

Also wonder what would happen if AA and Chainsaw CD was made smaller, so placing heatblasts becomes harder and drifting those skills becomes more punishing.

I'd love for MCH to find a higher ceiling somehow.

[IdowhatIwant]

MCH floor is low, but the ceiling is also low. I'd love for MCH ceiling to be higher.

I wonder how the class would play if...

Wildfire was bumped up by a lot so it's very important to place it within buffs and not to lose it. Queen finishers were bumped up by a lot so it matters more when they happen. Regular damage was bumped down, so MCH becomes less about damage consistency and more playful with timing and buffs.

Also wonder what would happen if AA and Chainsaw CD was made smaller, so placing heatblasts becomes harder and drifting those skills becomes more punishing.

I'd love for MCH to find a higher ceiling somehow.

With out a rework, Yoshi P has already said that MCH is a completed class. Hince why all we got in this expansion was a upgarded aoe, another Queen finisher, and another drill which are all very uninspired skills. I know it's counter intuitive, but chainsaw should have been a gap closer. They gave SMN one and it works just fine.

[Serenaya]

Bumping to keep these threads alive. We need change and it ain't happening without shoving the class in their faces. Keep the ideas and conversation coming, y'all.

[TheSpooks]

Bumping cause too many SAM threads

[Jirah]

Your not a fan of MCH sounds like your a fan of “damage output” in that regard just do RPR. All throughout SB, MCH was basically shunned for not being as good as BRD or as damage savy as SAM but so long as I cleared stuff I simply didn’t care about some invisible number

I agree MCH is a dead job as it hit a creative wall, but MCH simple would be cured just because it does more damage

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I believe the closest you can get to "objective" balancing is based on three factors.

1. Ease of Use - how easy it is to use the class, how punishing failures to execute rotation are, how much "effort" is required to hit maximum dps.
2. Utility - what does it bring the rest of the party? How much rdps/mitigation/heal does it bring?
3. Mobility - How much can they ignore mechanics and/or move with a fight and how punished are they for doing so. Essentially how difficult is it for them to "Adjust" to mechanics.

I believe the key factor in MCH's balance is that in 3, mobility, they can pretty much ignore any/all mechanics for ease of movement and are not punished at all for placement. As someone who loves MCH dearly it's the "Easiest" class in the game imo to play. I don't have to worry about up time, I don't have to worry about movement, I don't have to worry about buffs, and aside from a bit of burst damage I can pretty much stay in the top 1-3 in most content just loosely following the opener.

The issue here is how do they balance this ease of use to make it not punish other players, and it's an issue I believe they've had a while (see my previous main, NIN).

If you buff MCH to be able to do like high end melee/SAM/BLM numbers of damage you create a class that can easily hit like a truck with no punishment and literally no tactical thinking involved. No optimization of uptime and aside from maybe server ping no real drawbacks.

If you give them more utility it starts to copy BRD and DNC (See BRD in SHB having this same problem because DNC took most its utility/role in the group).

How fair would it be to have them do as much damage as classes that have to move around AOEs, utilize uptime, plan out their rotations/burst, etc. I've seen on the forums before that people believe mobility shouldn't affect dps balancing but I argue that it is probably the biggest reason why MCH is stuck in the weird limbo it's in currently. Perhaps the cast time while moving introduced in PVP could introduce a new skill/capstone next expac that allows for movement (slowed) but dps to provide more "skill ceiling" to the class or they could give it another personal dps buff it has to set up.

As someone who mains NIN and watched RPR come in and do way more damage, with my utility on a single button press, and just top dps for a while, I feel the pain of watching a class you like kinda become negligible, but I also believe the dps checks in this game aren't bad enough to warrant "needing" a specific comp if you don't eat aoes.

[Remarus]

-snip-

No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

[Cyd3l]

No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

That makes no sense, why should a high personal DPS class do more rDPS than classes designed to provide rDPS. You already do way more DPS than Bard and Dancer. And if you bothered to check rankings you'd see MCH is doing more rDPS than Bard and Dancer in most content, Alliance raids, Normal Raids, Dungeons, Extremes and even Savage until you hit the high percentile players where it switches to Bard and then DNC at 90%+. But you should do more RDPS too? Why bring a class that does 30% less actual dmg and whos buffs require everyone to play optimally to make use of them when the culmination of all those buffs dont even compare with a DPS class who can do that much themselves? Buff classes NEED high personal DPS classes to achieve high RDPS. If you can just stack personal DPS classes to achieve higher dps why would you ever want to deal with buffs classes? But all that is moot anyway cause MCH is already the top range DPS if anyone bothered to do any research before posting here you'd see that. Its only among the top 10% players in savage content where MCH falls behind the buff classes and you want to take that away too?

[TabrisOmbrelame]

No one is asking for MCH to do RPR or SAM DPS, we're asking to be the top DPS out of our specific role, as we're the selfish DPS class for the Phys Ranged role.

We shouldn't be putting up numbers like SAM/RPR/BLM but we *should* have rDPS equal to or greater than BRD/DNC rDPS when all is said and done. At the moment, if you're min-maxing your group comp, you're hurting your group by not filling your Phys Ranged with BRD or DNC to bring a higher rDPS.

I disagree with that.

A bard/dancer can have a lower rDPS than a MCH simply because the group isn't packing a punch. They simply have enormous RDPS because Bard buff 100% of the time through the fight for the whole group, while Dancer buff him and his partner. Those class always buff at least someone else and Depend on them to make their rDPS up. Therefore, if a dancer take a bard as a Partner, he will have significantly lower rDPS against a combinaison with a Ninja or Monk for exemple. BUT the DPS itself from a Bard and Dancer are lower than that of MCH, those two classes don't have a DH CRIT on a 580 Potency attack that can be unleashed every 55 sec. While Dancer got a 600 Potency DH Crit every 120 sec which can't even be compared, the Bard can only unleash a 600 Potency with nothing guarenteed after building his gauge at 80+. Their is other thing to compare that, like the robot of the Machinist who makes a total of 2780 Potency if you launch it at 100% and match perfectly into the burst phase (The robot attack for like 18-20 sec, half of this is done by the two last attack)

Even if I agree that MCH is still lacking in term of DPS, I can understand why it will never go far beyond Bard and Dancer too, It's not a hard job to play with, unlike the Monk who's really hard to master.


Therefore, Playing Bard/Dancer is a gamble when you play with people you don't know. If they are not doing good, you will not either. That problem isn't met with MCH.