Machinist class is dead

[Ayche]

Mobility tax/Uptime Bonus is an infinite debate carousel huh...
Well, the 10 potency nudging is a very safe method of building up pressure before MCH gets so much aDPS that lowest of the melee jobs or SMN/RDM squeal.

[CKNovel]

Mobility tax/Uptime Bonus is an infinite debate carousel huh...
Well, the 10 potency nudging is a very safe method of building up pressure before MCH gets so much aDPS that lowest of the melee jobs or SMN/RDM squeal.

It's an infinite debate because it's a compromise between a ranged and a pure DPS.
It should remain low because it's a ranged. It be higher because it's a pure DPS.

We already established the uptime is always near 100% and not as much punished now that we have the ranged GCD not breaking the combos.

[Ayche]

It's an infinite debate because it's a compromise between a ranged and a pure DPS.
It should remain low because it's a ranged. It be higher because it's a pure DPS.

We already established the uptime is always near 100% and not as much punished now that we have the ranged GCD not breaking the combos.

100% uptime on casters and especially melee still takes effort and has nuance to it, it is not given.
Uptime bonus can be higher or lower, but it cannot be negligible.

[CKNovel]

100% uptime on casters and especially melee still takes effort and has nuance to it, it is not given.
Uptime bonus can be higher or lower, but it cannot be negligible.

100% takes effort, sure.
But 95% uptime is achievable with minimal effort. I'd even argue 97-98% are easily achievable.

Those missing 5% are not that big of a DPS gap.

[Ayche]

100% takes effort, sure.
But 95% uptime is achievable with minimal effort. I'd even argue 97-98% are easily achievable.

Those missing 5% are not that big of a DPS gap.

I can only say that I don't think it is that easy.
But in the end this is something a ... vague community background noise consensus can decide I guess.
Not to mention what even percentile do we focus on here? Median MCH might had already overtaken median BRD and DNC.

[Silver-Strider]

I mean, there isn't a valid reason MCH shouldn't be doing more damage than BRD or DNC and I'm speaking of rDPS. A High APM job with less mobility than its counterparts and little to no utility to speak of should absolutely bring the highest damage of their role because that's all it offers. "But what's the point of BRD and DNC then?" The Increased Healing from Nature's Minne, Improv, Curing Waltz, etc. the utility in Songs and Steps and the extra mobility granted by Repelling Shot and En Avant. It's legitimately the same exact argument for why it's alright for BLM to out DPS RDM and SMN; extra healing, utility and mobility.

There's simply no reason whatsoever for MCH to be so low when everything points in the opposite direction.

[Serenaya]

Bumping to keep these threads alive. We need change and it ain't happening without shoving the class in their faces. Keep the ideas and conversation coming, y'all.

[TheSpooks]

Bumping cause too many SAM threads

[Jirah]

Your not a fan of MCH sounds like your a fan of “damage output” in that regard just do RPR. All throughout SB, MCH was basically shunned for not being as good as BRD or as damage savy as SAM but so long as I cleared stuff I simply didn’t care about some invisible number

I agree MCH is a dead job as it hit a creative wall, but MCH simple would be cured just because it does more damage

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I believe the closest you can get to "objective" balancing is based on three factors.

1. Ease of Use - how easy it is to use the class, how punishing failures to execute rotation are, how much "effort" is required to hit maximum dps.
2. Utility - what does it bring the rest of the party? How much rdps/mitigation/heal does it bring?
3. Mobility - How much can they ignore mechanics and/or move with a fight and how punished are they for doing so. Essentially how difficult is it for them to "Adjust" to mechanics.

I believe the key factor in MCH's balance is that in 3, mobility, they can pretty much ignore any/all mechanics for ease of movement and are not punished at all for placement. As someone who loves MCH dearly it's the "Easiest" class in the game imo to play. I don't have to worry about up time, I don't have to worry about movement, I don't have to worry about buffs, and aside from a bit of burst damage I can pretty much stay in the top 1-3 in most content just loosely following the opener.

The issue here is how do they balance this ease of use to make it not punish other players, and it's an issue I believe they've had a while (see my previous main, NIN).

If you buff MCH to be able to do like high end melee/SAM/BLM numbers of damage you create a class that can easily hit like a truck with no punishment and literally no tactical thinking involved. No optimization of uptime and aside from maybe server ping no real drawbacks.

If you give them more utility it starts to copy BRD and DNC (See BRD in SHB having this same problem because DNC took most its utility/role in the group).

How fair would it be to have them do as much damage as classes that have to move around AOEs, utilize uptime, plan out their rotations/burst, etc. I've seen on the forums before that people believe mobility shouldn't affect dps balancing but I argue that it is probably the biggest reason why MCH is stuck in the weird limbo it's in currently. Perhaps the cast time while moving introduced in PVP could introduce a new skill/capstone next expac that allows for movement (slowed) but dps to provide more "skill ceiling" to the class or they could give it another personal dps buff it has to set up.

As someone who mains NIN and watched RPR come in and do way more damage, with my utility on a single button press, and just top dps for a while, I feel the pain of watching a class you like kinda become negligible, but I also believe the dps checks in this game aren't bad enough to warrant "needing" a specific comp if you don't eat aoes.