The Devs aren't your personal friends and valid criticism isn't "harrassment"

[Vahlnir]

Those are absolutely valid concerns. None of which are helped by calling the people involved in their implementation "idiots", "Incompetent", or talking about how their mistakes should never have been made. There is a line between abuse and criticism.

Honestly, as far as my criticisms have gone, I've been fairly polite. Clearly angry, sure, and definitely stern, but I don't think I have ever taken it a step too far. At this point I don't want the devs to be sorry. I just want them to be better than what we are seeing right now, because I know full well that they can be. But that doesn't excuse the years of ignoring various issues like housing and Hrothgar/Viera customizations, among other things. But again, devs...don't be sorry. Be better.

[LittleImp]

This doesn't address what I said. Please show examples of people doing and saying the thing you quoted.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-is-concerning

“We have to send death threats or they’ll become Wow ):”

This is ridiculous.

32 likes.

This was said in response to :

I'm sorry you were inconvenienced by the people who are rightfully complaining about the giant cat race that lost their ears or the people who have put up with 10 years of bad housing systems only to lose their lottery to a 0.

Hold them accountable through reasonable means or this game will go the way of WoW.

[Vahlnir]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-is-concerning



32 likes.

This was said in response to :

Yeah, they (aveyond) were in no way implying that death threats were okay, but were instead saying that the dev team was not beyond criticism and they needed to be called out on various issues...reasonably. I'm not sure why one of the first responses to that post was...like that. It just wasn't necessary. It was also obvious later on that the OP was an...interesting individual to put it mildly. To say what I really want to say would probably earn me a temp ban. lol

[Krotoan]

Honestly, as far as my criticisms have gone, I've been fairly polite. Clearly angry, sure, and definitely stern, but I don't think I have ever taken it a step too far. At this point I don't want the devs to be sorry. I just want them to be better than what we are seeing right now, because I know full well that they can be. But that doesn't excuse the years of ignoring various issues like housing and Hrothgar/Viera customizations, among other things. But again, devs...don't be sorry. Be better.

Honestly it doesn't even have to be polite. If you're going that extra mile to keep it there then props, but people are being outright insulting and abusive, and that helps nothing. It actually makes it worse because it buries valid and useful criticism in garbage posts. By all means call out what you have a problem with but understand that the less rage you put in it and the more useful information the more likely it'll be at least looked at. No CM agent is going to pass a post up the pipe that's calling the dev teams stupid.

[LittleImp]

It was also obvious later on that the OP was an...interesting individual to put it mildly. To say what I really want to say would probably earn me a temp ban. lol

For anyone interested in that, here's a compilation of that threads OP's behavior after his initial post. It's a perfect example of someone using accusations of harassment as an excuse to shutdown opposition, all the while acting in bad faith and engaging in behavior that violates the very standard they wish to enforce on others.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5908247

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Really? I've seen mostly angry people spitting words, so their post become unintelligible. Constructive Criticism is giving valid arguments, or possible ways to improve said situation. "Firing everyone involved" is not a solution, it may be a Consequence, but definitely not Critisism.

Finally, some Intelligent Words.

It saddens me to see people try to rationalize and justify their hatred. We all know what acceptable societal behavior looks like. We know what polite and constructive criticism looks like.

If you say hey I really don’t like this or that for X reason. Can you please fix X issue. Hello dev team I feel like we are not being heard and we are very upset. I am unsubbing for this and this reason.

That’s all okay.

What is not okay is insulting others, comparing them to other people who are widely hated in society and running your mouth like what you are saying is not going to reach another human being on the other side of the screen.

Some of the stuff you guys say you wouldn’t even tell them to a stranger, but somehow you feel it’s okay to tell it to the developers of a game you have enjoyed? I’m sorry but that’s damn right abusive and you should know that.

At the end of that day intention matters, and people who want to hate because they feel something didn’t go their way should no be encouraged. If you got something to say, say your piece like you are decent human being and leave it at that.

Sadly, not everybody does. Most people think just ranting and raving, getting into fights, and name calling the devs and the Company, or anybody with a Counter-Perspective is Acceptable Behavior. Then when you call them out for it, they always act like they did nothing wrong or just call you a White Knight. Its very Deplorable Behavior.

[Vahlnir]

Finally, some Intelligent Words.



Sadly, not everybody does. Most people think just ranting and raving, getting into fights, and name calling the devs and the Company, or anybody with a Counter-Perspective is Acceptable Behavior. Then when you call them out for it, they always act like they did nothing wrong or just call you a White Knight. Its very Deplorable Behavior.

I've got no issue with those who disagree with the stance that I and some others share. At the same time, they should learn to read a room first. Coming into a thread and saying "lol you guys are so mad, calm down gawd" is what I have an issue with. That and offering snarky responses besides. That isn't sharing an opposing opinion. That is gaslighting.

[Packetdancer]

I feel like it's worth saying that even if it is happening, you ultimately accomplish nothing by telling people who did not participate in sending death threats that it is happening and they need to tone it down because you are not helping the victims in the attack in any way by telling someone who did no such thing to stop.

Agreed; there is a tendency online -- and maybe in humanity in general -- to point to the worst examples of something, and then tell people who are not the worst examples that they can't do something because the worst examples exist. (Though it is easy to get baited into discussion, as this -- and many other -- threads demonstrate. As does the fact that I have posted in said threads.)

The only benefit in saying "please stop making death threats" (or "please stop wishing violence on other people, even as hyperbole") in a place where that isn't happening to any great extent is maybe to make rational-but-critical folks realize that other people are, in fact, being jerks, and sort of prime them to go "cool your jets, buddy" when they encounter folks who are basically embodying the "I rage now" meme-image (and potentially undermining the rational arguments in doing so).

All you do otherwise is either to try to shut up potentially-valid criticism, or to get to feel a false sense of virtue over those who probably weren't the offenders in the first place. (Or feel validation when others are like "yes, death threats/wishes for violent harm are bad, even if just angry hyperbole", which... should not need to be debated in the first place?! Like, I would hope we can all agree on that as a baseline human behavior, especially when dealing with entertainment products!)

Folks who really want to shut down the lunatic fringe -- or, I dunno, engage in text sparring matches with folks who are upset enough to come unglued -- will probably do better to go tilt at that particular windmill on Twitter or reddit or whatever the heck else. Since while I would characterize the official forums right now as "pretty freakin' angry", this has not (generally) been the venue where people have become unhinged over pretend internet housing and are howling at the moon screaming for blood.

I mean, or we can keep letting ourselves be lured into this conversation across yet another thread. (...myself included.)

[BingleNingle]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-is-concerning



32 likes.

This was said in response to :

I'm still confused. the initial post was as follows

Dev Harassment is concerning

Hello all!

I am new to posting here and I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place for this but I feel its necessary to be said regardless. I've seen quite a lot of heated discussions about the player housing situation and a few other past events where players have felt slighted or in some way inconvenienced and overwhelmingly people have been voicing their frustrations in a way that seems a tad overkill. Frustration is one thing but calling devs names or being hysterical about this or any situation does nothing but cause real people to be stressed out. I know we often laud the dev team and Yoshi-P especially but the opposite can be true too. Very bi-polar which is to be expected from such a large MMO audience.

I hope people who read this can voice their frustrations more gently and constructively in the future. I'm sorry you were inconvenienced but this is a game that you enjoy and its a career that game devs slave at to make. the disparity between our commitments is immeasurable. They want to make the best game they can and believing otherwise is foolish. I don't mean this to be another "praise Yoshi-P!" post so please understand that I just think our collective voices when compounded have a very drastic effect on real people and we should act accordingly.

TL;DR stop being mean pls

It doesn't mention death threats? Nobody brings it up until EaraGrace does. Am I missing something? The initial call to action was to be a bit less nasty when discussing devs. Which is fair, I've seen some rather mean statements that don't serve much purpose. But I'm very much missing where these death threats are. Please help?

[Vahlnir]

I'm still confused. the initial post was as follows It doesn't mention death threats? Nobody brings it up until EaraGrace does. Am I missing something? The initial call to action was to be a bit less nasty when discussing devs. Which is fair, I've seen some rather mean statements that don't serve much purpose. But I'm very much missing where these death threats are. Please help?

You've got a pretty good understanding already. They weren't there. lol And then they were brought up for no reason at all.