On the Tyranny of Burst Windows

[SeverianLyonesse]

I'm reposting this from another thread because I think I hit on a more fundamental issue to all of these job changes.

The problem we are running into is that cross-class, on-rails burst windows have been ruining job design. Everything is being pruned away in service of a 60/120 second script.

This design choice to lean into burst windows to me is SO WEIRD for a game that is increasingly obsessed with (a) casual appeal and (b) soloable content. With respect to both of these goals especially--but also with respect to just making a fun experience regardless of who or how the game is played--syncing up with 7 other players should not be more important than making the jobs fun to execute in themselves.

Imo, all party damage buffs should be removed--i.e., heavily minimize or eliminate "damage synergy." Then jobs would have much more flexibility in rotation design and job expression, and we could perhaps even see the return of cut abilities. I think only the buffs to party damage need to be removed--most other support abilities still work fairly well in encouraging both player agency and party movement coordination without encouraging syncing up burst windows.

By my count, a fix wouldn't involve much, just removing (or retooling to be player-only):

* DRG - Battle Litany
* MNK - Brotherhood
* NIN - Trick Attack/Mug
* DNC - Technical Finish
* RDM - Embolden
* RPR - Arcane Circle

And then a reworking of BRD and AST which frankly could both use it.

Syncing up precise rotations with 7 other players just doesn't make for very fun content. It has a high frustration rate and minimal payoff, and personally I get no thrill from burst window boosts. Certainly not as much as just having cool abilities that actually do things themselves without needing to be in another player's buff window.

I think if a change like this were made, it would substantially open up both job and encounter design and allow the game to actually be *reactive*, *enabling*, and *fun* again.

[Elesh]

I don't entirely disagree with the premise that the rigid burst windows are... not a perfect implementation. But I doubt the end result of 'let's remove all forms of group synergy' would be as positive as you're thinking. There's a lot of nuance that having these party utility tools adds to class balance that wouldn't exist otherwise.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I don't entirely disagree with the premise that the rigid burst windows are... not a perfect implementation. But I doubt the end result of 'let's remove all forms of group synergy' would be as positive as you're thinking. There's a lot of nuance that having these party utility tools adds to class balance that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I didn't advocate for removing all forms of group synergy, so I'm getting the impression you didn't read the whole post before replying. Just the group synergy revolving around party damage buffs. None of the other party-wide buffs or debuffs directly affect and constrain job rotations--i.e. the bulk of DPS and Tank design--the way that damage buffs do. And again, we are looking at removing *one* ability per job, plus an overhaul of AST (coming in 6.2 anyway) and BRD (could probably use it).

[Rongway]

I didn't advocate for removing all forms of group synergy, if you bothered to read through it. Just the group synergy revolving around party damage buffs. None of the other party-wide buffs or debuffs directly affect and constrain job rotations the way that damage buffs do.

The optimizers are still going to find the optimal timing to line up everyone's buffs without losing casts to drift, so there will still be some sort of 60s/90s/120s burst window expectation anyway. Removing the two minute party damage buffs won't change that. Better to have a clearly delineated burst window prescribed by 2min party buffs than for people to have to learn some weird resonance that it took someone with graduate level knowledge of mathematics to discover.

[SeverianLyonesse]

The optimizers are still going to find the optimal timing to line up everyone's buffs without losing casts to drift, so there will still be some sort of 60s/90s/120s burst window expectation anyway. Removing the two minute party damage buffs won't change that.

Yes, each *individual* will be expected to optimize, but they would be able to be designed with *different* and maybe even *variable* time windows to optimize around. Optimization won't mean making every player a slave to the other 7, or every job design a slave to the other 18.

[Azuri]

I didn't advocate for removing all forms of group synergy, so I'm getting the impression you didn't read the whole post before replying. Just the group synergy revolving around party damage buffs.

What form of group synergy besides damage buffs do we have left? The answer already is - "none".

[SeverianLyonesse]

What form of group synergy besides damage buffs do we have left? The answer already is - "none".

Ignoring the fact that most mechanics require group cooperation, we still have:

* Damage reduction buffs (Tanks, Healers, Pranged, RDM)
* Healing increase buffs (Healers, MNK)
* Partner abilities (DRG, DNC)
* Shields (Tanks, SGE)
* Speed buffs (SCH)

Again, I have to reiterate that it is specifically the party-wide *damage* buffs that are parasitic because the more buffs are implemented around that 120 second window, the more entire job rotations are contorted around that. Defensive, healing, movement buffs do not directly affect rotation design the way that party damage buffs do. They may affect encounter design, which is a separate issue, but damage buffs are largely what is responsible for the "homogenization of jobs" people are complaining about.

[IdowhatIwant]

I'm reposting this from another thread because I think I hit on a more fundamental issue to all of these job changes.

The problem we are running into is that cross-class, on-rails burst windows have been ruining job design. Everything is being pruned away in service of a 60/120 second script.

This design choice to lean into burst windows to me is SO WEIRD for a game that is increasingly obsessed with (a) casual appeal and (b) soloable content. With respect to both of these goals especially--but also with respect to just making a fun experience regardless of who or how the game is played--syncing up with 7 other players should not be more important than making the jobs fun to execute in themselves.

Imo, all party damage buffs should be removed--i.e., heavily minimize or eliminate "damage synergy." Then jobs would have much more flexibility in rotation design and job expression, and we could perhaps even see the return of cut abilities. I think only the buffs to party damage need to be removed--most other support abilities still work fairly well in encouraging both player agency and party movement coordination without encouraging syncing up burst windows.

Syncing up precise rotations with 7 other players just doesn't make for very fun content. It has a high frustration rate and minimal payoff, and personally I get no thrill from burst window boosts. Certainly not as much as just having cool abilities that actually do things themselves without needing to be in another player's buff window.

I think if a change like this were made, it would substantially open up both job and encounter design and allow the game to actually be *reactive*, *enabling*, and *fun* again.

Is this your first MMO? There is not a single MMORPG or even an RPG that does not have burst windows.

My counterpoint to this is that FFXIV is increasingly moving toward movement-based combat. The majority of "synchronization" in the game--and indeed most of the fun, reactionary gameplay that keeps players interested--is moving around to deal with mechanics and avoid damage.

This is how the game has worked since ARR. Are you new to this game?

Again, I have to reiterate that it is specifically the party-wide *damage* buffs that are parasitic because the more buffs are implemented around that 120 second window, the more entire job rotations are contorted around that. Defensive, healing, movement buffs do not directly affect rotation design the way that party damage buffs do. They may affect encounter design, which is a separate issue, but damage buffs are largely what is responsible for the "homogenization of jobs" people are complaining about.

Ninja buffs are pretty ingrained in there class design they have had them since ARR. I am not really sure how damage buffs are responsible for homogenization when most of them are fairly unique from job to job. Now I will agree that forcing design to be worked with in these windows is bad, how ever if let's say a dragoon does buff it's crit for 20 seconds then it's major damage rotation should be done with in a 20 second window. I think you are narrowing the over all issue of job design to one thing, when in reality there is a slew of issues that have caused class homogenization. If anything this would actually homogenize your DPS classes even more than it would help diversify them.

[Azuri]

Ignoring the fact that most mechanics require group cooperation, we still have:

* Damage reduction buffs (Tanks, Healers, Pranged, RDM)
* Healing increase buffs (Healers, MNK)
* Partner abilities (DRG, DNC)
* Shields (Tanks, SGE)
* Speed buffs (SCH)

Again, I have to reiterate that it is specifically the party-wide *damage* buffs that are parasitic because the more buffs are implemented around that 120 second window, the more entire job rotations are contorted around that. Defensive, healing, movement buffs do not directly affect rotation design the way that party damage buffs do. They may affect encounter design, which is a separate issue, but damage buffs are largely what is responsible for the "homogenization of jobs" people are complaining about.

So exclusively mitigation abilities that suffer from being completely unneccessary beyond a two-week period in three and a half fights once in eight months. Not even talking about the fundamental difference between pass/fail check like mitigation vs. infinite scale of damage. Great synergy, much teamwork.

Although I respect that you at least had enough sense to remove Peloton from your list of "job synergy" abilities with the edit.

[baklava151]

I made a thread about this a while ago but I think you said it better and more concisely than I did lol. It doesn't help other CDs tend to be 60s/120s as well and are clearly meant to be used under raid buffs, which doesn't leave a ton of room for interesting things happening in between.