About the new 24 Man Alliance Raid.

[Wyssahtyn]

It’s a step up from a Nier for sure. We should keep encouraging challenging content. Personally I died a few times on my first run and once on my second. I feel it is harder. It’s definitely not boring in my opinion.

Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

[Ath192]

Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

Storm blood had a lot more job nuance and job complexity going on. Now that things are more simple the same amount of mechanics simply feel easier.

I think it’s more that thinking back about that time period. For me adding back some spice to the jobs may also help. I mean my BLM was so immobile back then everything had to be seriously considered.

I feel it’s a good base. Some 24 mans may be harder, others around this level. Perhaps they can crank it up a notch if most players feel this way. I could get onboard with harder personally, I just don’t want the hoards of players crying that stuff is too hard either though.

For me causal content should be = as long as I have to pay attention or else I die I’m happy. What it shouldn’t be is a snooze fest where no one cares because nothing matters. That’s just boring, and people crying was in part to blame why the game became so brain dead.

[Broken_Wind]

I just don’t want the hoards of players crying that stuff is too hard either though.

Alliance Raids are the one area of FFXIV where I see standard MMORPG toxicity on a somewhat regular basis
The problem isn't with content being too hard, its with people not being able to deal with wipes.
People generally lack the patience to explain and coach and instead lash out

This is so much less common in other areas of the game thankfully

But its a very tough thing to balance.
Hard content invites toxicity
Large group content invites toxicity
Hard alliance raids therefore really make this an issue

[Ath192]

Alliance Raids are the one area of FFXIV where I see standard MMORPG toxicity on a somewhat regular basis
The problem isn't with content being too hard, its with people not being able to deal with wipes.
People generally lack the patience to explain and coach and instead lash out

This is so much less common in other areas of the game thankfully

But its a very tough thing to balance.
Hard content invites toxicity
Large group content invites toxicity
Hard alliance raids therefore really make this an issue

I agree with all you said. That being said, I still want alliance raids on the harder side. They are the end game content for casuals so it stands to reason it should present a challenge a casual player should be able to overcome. And I have no doubts both are true for the moment, it is a decent challenge, and surely they can overcome it because its not too crazy.

This is where the community needs to decide the environment they want to foster and where we do our part. Don't be toxic yourself and if you see someone being overly toxic report them. They do ban people often and well, its a paid sub game so it hurts. I say hit em where it hurts because we shouldn't let the bad side of this community take our fun away from us.

[Syln]

Alliance Raids are the one area of FFXIV where I see standard MMORPG toxicity on a somewhat regular basis
The problem isn't with content being too hard, its with people not being able to deal with wipes.
People generally lack the patience to explain and coach and instead lash out

This is so much less common in other areas of the game thankfully

But its a very tough thing to balance.
Hard content invites toxicity
Large group content invites toxicity
Hard alliance raids therefore really make this an issue

Frankly i see that as an opportunity to add a few lines on my blacklist. It's better to spot toxic people without being their target as it would be on smaller scale content.

Then again it's kind of rare that i come across agressive or passive agressive people in this game, it does happen but it's rare.

[LittleImp]

These encounters are a lot of fun compared to the Nier raids and I feel like SE is on the right track. Definitely my favorite part 6.1, along with character cards.

Sure, but like, the director said it'd be like Ivalice. Definitely wasn't. Only wiped once on second and fourth bosses respectively. Rabanastre would have raids disband on Hashmal and even Mateus when they first dropped. And while I died a fair bit, I attribute that more to trying to remember how to play Reaper mid raid (and therefore paying more attention to my hotbars than mechanics) since the devs decided to push those terrible SAM changes and ruined the job for me.

Difficulty at the individual level hasn't really gone down, it's more a matter of SE putting less mechanics that force the entire raid to wipe due to someone else's mistakes. It's simply easier for a handful of skilled players to carry and recover the raid.

Personally, I don't mind this form of difficulty because as much as I love TG Cid or Hashmal, the supposed 'difficulty' of those fights exclusively came from other people making mistakes on basic mechanics like the bleed bubbles or sand orb adds.

[OhNooo]

Difficulty at the individual level hasn't really gone down, it's more a matter of SE putting less mechanics that force the entire raid to wipe due to someone else's mistakes. It's simply easier for a handful of skilled players to carry and recover the raid.

Personally, I don't mind this form of difficulty because as much as I love TG Cid or Hashmal, the supposed 'difficulty' of those fights exclusively came from other people making mistakes on basic mechanics like the bleed bubbles or sand orb adds.

Prenerfed TG CID was some of the most fun I’ve had in the entire game. It made me feel alive! I’d love to have more content like that. Once you figured out the tells it was pretty easy…but people seemed to have so much trouble with it for some reason.

[Ath192]

Prenerfed TG CID was some of the most fun I’ve had in the entire game. It made me feel alive! I’d love to have more content like that. Once you figured out the tells it was pretty easy…but people seemed to have so much trouble with it for some reason.

They didnt. At least not initially when the wave of super fans/hard cores were carrying and communicating in the chats organizing the run. It was after a while when only casual players that were running it had no clue and wiped endlessly that people started complaining. OG Thunder God Cid was not a hard fight.

But it was engaging, and it was fun. But yes, his mechanics had raid wide implications, which hopefully with a personal responsibility approach less torches and pitchforks arrive at the devs gates with this raid series. Please Devs, keep it engaging and challenging.

[Lauront]

They didnt. At least not initially when the wave of super fans/hard cores were carrying and communicating in the chats organizing the run. It was after a while when only casual players that were running it had no clue and wiped endlessly that people started complaining. OG Thunder God Cid was not a hard fight.

But it was engaging, and it was fun. But yes, his mechanics had raid wide implications, which hopefully with a personal responsibility approach less torches and pitchforks arrive at the devs gates with this raid series. Please Devs, keep it engaging and challenging.

There is an allergy to communicating within the broader community. I don't see it as much ever since I moved back to an EU server, as typically people do communicate here, but there are occasions where people rush in with a bunch of new sprouts and are surprised when they wipe. A lot of this content is manageable if you share strategies etc. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the level of difficulty of some of these fights in some MSQ trials, to suit the type of threats the WoL is dealing with. I do wish they'd find a way to offer an optional easy mode for normal content (particularly trials), e.g. via the trusts, and allow the DF versions to be better, but instead trying to make the instances trust-compatible seems to be resulting in the mechanics becoming even more diluted in the DF version... whatever the business rationale for it, it doesn't help with my immersion, especially when optional casual content like this showcases so much more creativity. I think simply insisting that because the MSQ is mandatory, all associated content has to be easy, is a lazy approach with all the tools available to a modern MMO.

[Ath192]

There is an allergy to communicating within the broader community. I don't see it as much ever since I moved back to an EU server, as typically people do communicate here, but there are occasions where people rush in with a bunch of new sprouts and are surprised when they wipe. A lot of this content is manageable if you share strategies etc. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the level of difficulty of some of these fights in some MSQ trials, to suit the type of threats the WoL is dealing with. I do wish they'd find a way to offer an optional easy mode for normal content (particularly trials), e.g. via the trusts, and allow the DF versions to be better, but instead trying to make the instances trust-compatible seems to be resulting in the mechanics becoming even more diluted in the DF version... whatever the business rationale for it, it doesn't help with my immersion, especially when optional casual content like this showcases so much more creativity. I think simply insisting that because the MSQ is mandatory, all associated content has to be easy, is a lazy approach with all the tools available to a modern MMO.

100% The trust duties should be brain dead and easy. White noise. Relaxing, for the enjoyment of people that don't enjoy adrenaline. And then.... They should just slap a disclaimer in the DF saying players will be expected to communicate and work together to solve multiplayer duties and by all means ratchet up the difficulty.

With this approach personally raid wipe mechanics like TGC (Ivalice had) should be pretty common place, because by signing up for multiplayer you should be able to communicate. Granted, this stuff shouldn't be Extreme/Savage with heavy damage checks, after all it is normal content. So Ivalice and pre nerf Castrum Lacus Litore were good examples of the difficulty we should honestly expect from an adventure game that promises dangers and treasures.

The entire premise of this game is that Eorzea IS a dangerous place. And you are an adventurer TURNED ON by these dangers. So please, lets just be true to the game and give ppl an easy way out. I want quality, no quantity of multiplayer duties.