New Endwalker dungeon is more of the same cookie-cutter bland dungeon design

[Alex_LoneWolf]

That's the thing. It's in the name. It's not a hallway, it's a dungeon. I guess the way to look at what's being discussed is to not have a straight path to a boss, but one that winds and curves, having interesting nooks and crannies in it. If I were any boss or enemy, I wouldn't want a straight path through me.

A friend of mine pointed out that pre-6.1, Toto-Rak was more of a dungeon that drew out an experience, and looking at it now, I believe he was absolutely correct.

Although the format may typically be 3 bosses and done, the goal of this genre (at least to my perspective), is to create an emotional feeling inside someone that draws attention, curiosity, and wonder, and is by no means an exhaustive list of what community members are looking for. What I'm hearing from the posts is a request by multiple people to look at the emotions that are being drawn out and do more things to bring those emotions out.

Another thing that concerns me is the effect that it has on the player base as a whole. While some of us can be very vocal that these changes would be for a benefit, upon further study into the actual implementation, the rewards don't outweigh the risks. Although not entirely similar, Gordias Savage was this way on release and is the first thing that comes to my mind. Shortly after release, parts of it were changed because the mental effects that it was having on the community was not what the devs wanted.

[KazumaFaemura]

But the dungeons have always been glorified hallways. I'm not sure why you think that just started recently. ARR dungeons branched out a bit with some neat stuff and a sense of openess, but overall most of the dungeons were literally a straight path to each boss. They just simplified that design because they didn't want people doing these mass pulls straight to the boss like how we used to do where we'd just have the tank pull and die at the boss wall essentially skipping everything.

Again there's also the whole trusts thing. There's more to an AI than just simple instructions to give to an NPC. Or have you forgotten how bad the squadron AI was? Like they literally abandoned it because it was so bad lol.

I barely engaged with the Squadron AI because I'd rather play with people. I'd rather something like Toto-Rak again. Oh wait they butchered it and turned it into another freaking hallway. Destroying what made it special in the first place, a dungeon with multiple paths to explore and fun to be had. Nope that's all gone now, it's just the same cookie cutter design now. The fact you are defending this practice is disheartening to say the least. As someone that has been playing since Beta I'm fed up with this design and it needs to be seriously changed, or just stop hyping up the dungeon in the story as some place that'll kill us when it won't because it's so gosh darn easy I could do it in my sleep and not give a darn.

[Ransu]

It doesn't matter when it started. The point is that the dungeon design is bad. It's sad to say, but WoW has a dungeon design that is on a whole different level than FFXIV completely. With the money they're raking in on this game, there is no excuse for the copy-paste dungeons we are getting. They don't even try anymore.

I don't think it's necessary to excuse this sort of design. We're paying for a product, and we should get our money's worth. These Endwalker dungeons are hot garbage and I can see no reason why anyone would defend them.

That's nice and all, but if they make them "complex" people will just complain they take too long, so there's no winning for SQE. Like it or not, most people just view dungeons as exp/tome farms and are perfectly fine with how they are now. I'd wager more people would be upset if they made the dungeons longer than those of you who are upset about a design that ultimately hasn't changed much since ARR.

I barely engaged with the Squadron AI because I'd rather play with people. I'd rather something like Toto-Rak again. Oh wait they butchered it and turned it into another freaking hallway. Destroying what made it special in the first place, a dungeon with multiple paths to explore and fun to be had. Nope that's all gone now, it's just the same cookie cutter design now. The fact you are defending this practice is disheartening to say the least. As someone that has been playing since Beta I'm fed up with this design and it needs to be seriously changed, or just stop hyping up the dungeon in the story as some place that'll kill us when it won't because it's so gosh darn easy I could do it in my sleep and not give a darn.

Toto-rak was neat....in 2012 and only when ran one time. It was a horrid dungeon that I'd willingly take the DF lockout to avoid it.

[Alex_LoneWolf]

The difficulty is that complex becomes subjective versus objective. People would complain that Toto-Rak and other dungeons were super complex.

The issues is: where is the cutoff? What is considered complex enough, or not enough for that matter? That's why I tried to look at it through the lens of emotions, specifically around what emotions that people would like to experience.

As you mention, there is no way for Square to get the winning combination. However, the way I read the concern being addressed is that the way content, specifically dungeons, is being reworked will cause people to loose interest, and not be as appealing to new players. Loss of player base can lead to issues for Square, hence why people are trying to speak up and mention this concern.

I personally hope Square will reevaluate the changes and see that they are not meeting what the community is looking for.

[KazumaFaemura]

That's nice and all, but if they make them "complex" people will just complain they take too long, so there's no winning for SQE. Like it or not, most people just view dungeons as exp/tome farms and are perfectly fine with how they are now. I'd wager more people would be upset if they made the dungeons longer than those of you who are upset about a design that ultimately hasn't changed much since ARR.



Toto-rak was neat....in 2012 and only when ran one time. It was a horrid dungeon that I'd willingly take the DF lockout to avoid it.

That right there proves you're one of the roots of the problem of why we have cookie cutter designs. You want something easy something that doesn't take a lot of time just get it done and move on to AFKing to something else. Toto-Rak wasn't any longer than any other dungeon in the game and could be done fairly quickly. My only major complaint with the dungeon was the last little bit the sludge and slow movement other than that it as a fine and fun dungeon to romp through. No more than maybe 10 to 15 minutes tops if you wanted to go point to point. You definitely had to option to steam roll the dungeon if you want but it was nice to have the option to explore as well.

[Ransu]

That right there proves you're one of the roots of the problem of why we have cookie cutter designs. You want something easy something that doesn't take a lot of time just get it done and move on to AFKing to something else. Toto-Rak wasn't any longer than any other dungeon in the game and could be done fairly quickly. My only major complaint with the dungeon was the last little bit the sludge and slow movement other than that it as a fine and fun dungeon to romp through. No more than maybe 10 to 15 minutes tops if you wanted to go point to point. You definitely had to option to steam roll the dungeon if you want but it was nice to have the option to explore as well.

Ironic coming from someone who's only done the first boss of savage.

I run savage/ex/ultimates for my challenges. Hard mode dungeons would be kinda neat, but I'd rather not spend a crazy amount of time on level 90 dungeons that I'm going to be running every single day to keep up with my weekly tome caps.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ironic coming from someone who's only done the first boss of savage.

I run savage/ex/ultimates for my challenges. Hard mode dungeons would be kinda neat, but I'd rather not spend a crazy amount of time on level 90 dungeons that I'm going to be running every single day to keep up with my weekly tome caps.

Hi i’m someone who’s cleared the current savage and all of eden savage. I don’t want cookie cutter design, i would like more intricate dungeons. I’m tired of the hallways, it impacts things like the story, and makes things just so much more simplified when in reality they could add so much more with dungeon designs.

[KazumaFaemura]

Ironic coming from someone who's only done the first boss of savage.

I run savage/ex/ultimates for my challenges. Hard mode dungeons would be kinda neat, but I'd rather not spend a crazy amount of time on level 90 dungeons that I'm going to be running every single day to keep up with my weekly tome caps.

My group and I are still progging P2S. Besides we're here talking about dungeons not raids so let's stick the topic at hand. Also my progression in a raid doesn't invalidate my concerns. Hate elitests like you, really tick me off thinking your opinion is higher than others because you care to do something that some of us couldn't give to craps for. Honestly I don't care for doing the savage raids.

[FoxyAreku]

People have been saying this for the better part of a decade now and they're still doing it. Might just be a lost cause, this game will never have interesting dungeons. Interesting boss fights, sometimes, but never dungeons as a whole.

Ironic coming from someone who's only done the first boss of savage.

I run savage/ex/ultimates for my challenges. Hard mode dungeons would be kinda neat, but I'd rather not spend a crazy amount of time on level 90 dungeons that I'm going to be running every single day to keep up with my weekly tome caps.

Lording over people's progression in something that is entirely unrelated to that doesn't make you look better or help your argument. Just kinda makes you look like a jerk, could be any number of reasons someone hasn't cleared a tier entirely. Food for thought.

I've been up to enrage on P4S and I agree with Kazuma.

[Curisu]

You don't want it.
The reason why they did not continue with the 1.0 and 2.0 formula of dungeons is because people didn't like them and always went for the fastest way.
So why should they create secret rooms and additional ways to be seen by some player just once or twice and then they take the fastest route.

And the overall difficulty of the dungeon is so easy because the majority of players are casuals and just want to farm their tomes without much effort.
You can find a lot of players who are already overwhelmed by the mechanic's in this expert dungeons.