Great job in 1.21 - Let's Talk Future FFXIV additions.

[AdvancedWind]

None, taken and let kill the "your better of playin 11" i did my time done now.

But anyway, im just using what works, obviously they would add different style too it but im just planting the seed.

Sure it a system from 11 but i stick with my sometimes the old is better than the new.

I understand what you mean. Sure, FFXI was a great game and has plenty of stuff that worked, plenty of stuff people remember fondly, but I personally believe SE can outdo it and make a better game than it was, instead of making the same game with shinny graphics. And yes, making a better game *does* include taking good things from XI (and IX, and VIII, III, T, whatever. Heck, if there's a good idea from Dragon Quest they can adapt for this game, they better do it), but not to the point that many people advocate, and definitely not straight copy paste of systems and events from FFXI (or any other game).

And heck, maybe they really can't make a better game, maybe the final result will never be as good as XI was, but I'd still think we should at least let them try it and offer constructive criticism when they are indeed failing to deliver a good experience.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't want them to offer the same game they already gave us 10 years ago, I want them to make an entirely new experience that, yes, do take the good things they've been doing for 20+ years without just doing the same thing again.

In fact, Final Fantasy is a series that excels in this: Each game is very similar to it's predecessors and at the same time it's very different. The most recent entries accentuate this fact even more (each iteration after IX is completely different from it's predecessors and STILL manage to feel like FF. Even XIII.). I don't want them giving up on that philosophy and just resorting to porting as much as possible from FFXI, and I also think this is, commercially speaking, a bad idea.

That's why I *always* post on this kind of thread, I think there are many people that just...can't move on from FFXI and won't accept anything other than a game that allows them to revive their "old times of glory" (not saying this is your case, but definitely with a few other people around this place), and think that turning this as close to XI as possible is what will help them achieve that goal. But believe me, it won't.

[TheBlazed]

I understand what you mean. Sure, FFXI was a great game and has plenty of stuff that worked, plenty of stuff people remember fondly, but I personally believe SE can outdo it and make a better game than it was, instead of making the same game with shinny graphics. And yes, making a better game *does* include taking good things from XI (and IX, and VIII, III, T, whatever. Heck, if there's a good idea from Dragon Quest they can adapt for this game, they better do it), but not to the point that many people advocate, and definitely not straight copy paste of systems and events from FFXI (or any other game).

And heck, maybe they really can't make a better game, maybe the final result will never be as good as XI was, but I'd still think we should at least let them try it and offer constructive criticism when they are indeed failing to deliver a good experience.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't want them to offer the same game they already gave us 10 years ago, I want them to make an entirely new experience that, yes, do take the good things they've been doing for 20+ years without just doing the same thing again.

In fact, Final Fantasy is a series that excels in this: Each game is very similar to it's predecessors and at the same time it's very different. The most recent entries accentuate this fact even more (each iteration after IX is completely different from it's predecessors and STILL manage to feel like FF. Even XIII.). I don't want them giving up on that philosophy and just resorting to porting as much as possible from FFXI, and I also think this is, commercially speaking, a bad idea.

That's why I *always* post on this kind of thread, I think there are many people that just...can't move on from FFXI and won't accept anything other than a game that allows them to revive their "old times of glory" (not saying this is your case, but definitely with a few other people around this place), and think that turning this as close to XI as possible is what will help them achieve that goal. But believe me, it won't.

Well put,

I agree i would like to see new and innovative things but unfortunately as we saw, their idea didn't go well with the community in the beginning. Sure you might stay for what the other masses didn't like but if people are leaving left and right. What do you turn too? Chances of new things that "might" work. or tweaking it until its acceptable? I'm suggesting some things people enjoyed, not 100% cloned, but similar in a way where is possible to say "Oh' i enjoyed this kind of thing in 11"

[Elexia]

In fact, Final Fantasy is a series that excels in this: Each game is very similar to it's predecessors and at the same time it's very different. The most recent entries accentuate this fact even more (each iteration after IX is completely different from it's predecessors and STILL manage to feel like FF. Even XIII.). I don't want them giving up on that philosophy and just resorting to porting as much as possible from FFXI, and I also think this is, commercially speaking, a bad idea.

This is the thing, every FF was like this and only FFXIV wasn't because they initially tried to cater to the mainstream audience instead of doing what they do best (they even admit it was a mistake to be different for the sake of it.) Taking what works in FFXI is no different from copying WoW like every other developer does.

The ZNM system for example isn't really used in any other MMO, especially because they tend to dump things in instances and makes the world feel barren outside of hubs and cities. ZNM system is basically open world content where you spawn challenging HNMs (at the time) for good gear, you controlled when you fought them and you progressed through a series of them to fight the "final bosses" and eventually Pandomnium Warden.

ZNM was more of an adventure as you travelled all over ToAU fighting tough enemies, even in spots you'd normally never go in basic leveling/exploring. How is this a bad thing to incorporate into XIV? What will happen in Hamlet defense is exactly the same concept as Campaign and Campaign Ops? (It's sounding like it from recent review) There's nothing wrong with taking what works from a previous game, especially one you've created before and making it better, if every other MMO developer can do it, SE can do it too.

It's less about "re-living glory days" and more about "SE, look at what you've done before, you made a successful MMORPG, especially in the FF series 10 years ago and opt'd to ignore that."

[TheBlazed]

This is the thing, every FF was like this and only FFXIV wasn't because they initially tried to cater to the mainstream audience instead of doing what they do best (they even admit it was a mistake to be different for the sake of it.) Taking what works in FFXI is no different from copying WoW like every other developer does.

The ZNM system for example isn't really used in any other MMO, especially because they tend to dump things in instances and makes the world feel barren outside of hubs and cities. ZNM system is basically open world content where you spawn challenging HNMs (at the time) for good gear, you controlled when you fought them and you progressed through a series of them to fight the "final bosses" and eventually Pandomnium Warden.

ZNM was more of an adventure as you travelled all over ToAU fighting tough enemies, even in spots you'd normally never go in basic leveling/exploring. How is this a bad thing to incorporate into XIV? What will happen in Hamlet defense is exactly the same concept as Campaign and Campaign Ops? (It's sounding like it from recent review) There's nothing wrong with taking what works from a previous game, especially one you've created before and making it better, if every other MMO developer can do it, SE can do it too.

It's less about "re-living glory days" and more about "SE, look at what you've done before, you made a successful MMORPG, especially in the FF series 10 years ago and opt'd to ignore that."

In so many words this^

I thought the ZNM system was very unique. Which is why i asked for it to be in XIV. For the point's she made about
Going to area's never really explored is a great point as well. Im sure people here havn't been all over Grid/Uldah/Limsa area's if these send you to that area to fight those monsters. it has already added to your "immersion" of the game.

I even enjoyed the Tier's of the bosses but removed that for just bought pops with GuildLeve's which i think most people have 99 of...

[Jinko]

This is the thing, every FF was like this and only FFXIV wasn't because they initially tried to cater to the mainstream audience instead of doing what they do best (they even admit it was a mistake to be different for the sake of it.) Taking what works in FFXI is no different from copying WoW like every other developer does.

THAT is not why it failed, it failed because Tanaka was a stuborn mule and set in his ways.

I think its fair to say that if Yoshi-p was in control from day one this game would be nothing like this or FF11 for that matter.

Yoshida seems much more in touch with current gaming than Tanaka every will be.

[Rydin]

It's less about "re-living glory days" and more about "SE, look at what you've done before, you made a successful MMORPG, especially in the FF series 10 years ago and opt'd to ignore that."

Once again.. its about being inspired by FFXI.. not copying features directly from it...
Because to put it bluntly (And I know you loved FFXI, but it's the truth) SE wanted to appeal to a MUCH broader market than FFXI players... and I don't blame them

When you've got 500,000 people playing your online game and 6 million people playing the offline titles, as a business you have to consider ways to reach out to the other 92% of your fans

The OP has some good ideas... you even have good ideas about ZNMs... HNMs...huge zones of content... more NMs than any one person can name... But we've got to stop saying this game failed because it wasn't enough like FFXI... because financially... FFXI was just mediocre because it was exactly like FFXI

[Elexia]

Once again.. its about being inspired by FFXI.. not copying features directly from it...
Because to put it bluntly (And I know you loved FFXI, but it's the truth) SE wanted to appeal to a MUCH broader market than FFXI players... and I don't blame them

When you've got 500,000 people playing your online game and 6 million people playing the offline titles, as a business you have to consider ways to reach out to the other 92% of your fans

The OP has some good ideas... you even have good ideas about ZNMs... HNMs...huge zones of content... more NMs than any one person can name... But we've got to stop saying this game failed because it wasn't enough like FFXI... because financially... FFXI was just mediocre because it was exactly like FFXI

A big part of "it failed because it wasn't FFXI" is simply because look at FFXI 10 years later, if FFXIV released with that kind of foundation and built off of it while trying to appeal to the masses, do you really think it would have done worse than it did before?

There's MMOs with under 100,000 people doing just fine and if you don't know, FFXI was actually pulling in more money than any of their game simply because of the monthly fee alone, you can't call that 'mediocre'. People really have big number syndrome lately, because a stable playerbase will always be better than having millions of finicky players. The latter is better in terms of gross income that much is true, but really if you can sit there and say you've played with 1 - 6 million different people in your playtime, big numbers are indeed better.

[Rydin]

There's MMOs with under 100,000 people doing just fine and if you don't know, FFXI was actually pulling in more money than any of their game simply because of the monthly fee alone, you can't call that 'mediocre'. People really have big number syndrome lately, because a stable playerbase will always be better than having millions of finicky players. The latter is better in terms of gross income that much is true, but really if you can sit there and say you've played with 1 - 6 million different people in your playtime, big numbers are indeed better.

And they were also pulling in a lot more money into continued development than ANY OTHER GAME
essentially.. the current FFXI has taken 13 years to develop...
that SERIOUSLY eats into all of those monthly fees
But I'm not saying it didn't make a profit... Its not that kind of comparison...
Im not comparing it to other games... I'm comparing FFXI with 500,000 players to FFXI if it had 2.5 million players....
thats what SE is looking at....
What company wouldn't want MILLIONS of subs?

[Khal_Drogo]

I understand what you mean. Sure, FFXI was a great game and has plenty of stuff that worked, plenty of stuff people remember fondly, but I personally believe SE can outdo it and make a better game than it was, instead of making the same game with shinny graphics....

And heck, maybe they really can't make a better game, maybe the final result will never be as good as XI was, but I'd still think we should at least let them try it and offer constructive criticism when they are indeed failing to deliver a good experience...

...In fact, Final Fantasy is a series that excels in this: Each game is very similar to it's predecessors and at the same time it's very different. The most recent entries accentuate this fact even more (each iteration after IX is completely different from it's predecessors and STILL manage to feel like FF. Even XIII.). I don't want them giving up on that philosophy and just resorting to porting as much as possible from FFXI...

What is with people and assuming that "porting over as much from XI as possible" is going to result in a clone? Are the classes, abilities, weaponskills, spells, the lore, the main storyline, the quests, the leves, the areas, ETC. clones of XI? NO, they're not. And most of what XI fans are proposing can be found in, virtually, EVERY d#$n FF title since the beginning of time:

~Clear defined roles for party play.

~The "nested" UI as unamed jack a$$es call it.

~An actual, PERCEIVABLE difficulty factor (not just tedium via ifrit fights and dodging ghosts while fighting an enemy that requires a tank to be spammed in cures, rather than relying on his own d#$n abilities, ETC.)

~Some sort of viable sub job/class melding system that doesn't force every player to be a carbon f@#$!@ing copy of one another.

That's why I *always* post on this kind of thread, I think there are many people that just...can't move on from FFXI and won't accept anything other than a game that allows them to revive their "old times of glory" (not saying this is your case, but definitely with a few other people around this place), and think that turning this as close to XI as possible is what will help them achieve that goal. But believe me, it won't.

Underlined Portion Response: Wow....really? as if every biased thought that comes from that ignorant, dismissive, condescending, self-righteous point of view of yours is just GOLD, right?

Bolded Portion Response: The problem isn't that ppl can't move on from XI. The problem is that if anyone even mentions that f@#$!@ing title, ppl like you eat them alive, and so nothing productive comes from these threads.

This is all I get from your post, and those like yours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSXrs4h8L9A

[Biggs]

I understand what you mean. Sure, FFXI was a great game and has plenty of stuff that worked, plenty of stuff people remember fondly, but I personally believe SE can outdo it and make a better game than it was, instead of making the same game with shinny graphics. .

Ok but, wouldn't that include taking things they did fairly well from their other games (not just XI) and improving on them? What your saying (and what I seem to hear others saying) is they should create ALL completely new content that doesn't resemble ANYTHING we have ever seen before in ANY FF game, including XI. Thats funny considering we play a game in which we have the Xi races using Materia while flying on Airships and riding our Chocobos around while sipping Ether potions and spending tons of Gil. No cloning there whatsoever.

I think what Blazed is suggesting is what they are already doing: Using new systems blended with old ideas. Hunting nms, going into dungeons, instanced content, crafting and gathering, all of these things have been done before in dozens of games, yet that portion of it isn't considered cloning because most expect that sort of content when they go to buy an MMO. Do I want them to create dynamis again in XIV and just change the name? Not at all. But would I like some sort of content later that lets me group with my Linkshell in a large party for a raid that helps all of us work towards a greater goal? Well then hell yes! Some people may have only ever played Xi as their only MMO. So what else would you like them to compare it too? There also isn't exactly a ton of SUPER innovative MMO's out on the market, otherwise WOW and SWTOR wouldn't be as popular as they are. I understand that many of you are saying SE should be the leader in innovating new things in MMO's, but as they themselves have proven, thats a dangerous game, and if it was really that easy, more companies would be doing it by now.

While I don't agree with ever single one, I like your suggestions Blazed, good OP.