A certain someone isn't coming back [Spoilers]

[YianKutku]

I mean he was quite direct with Zenos in the latest interview. They even wondered if they should have done "he is death" sentence on top of that. How much more clear can that get? On top of that he also points out that Zenos is at the edge of the universe with no way to come back.

I'm honestly a little curious if the way YoshiP and co have talked about Zenos's death is the equivalent of going "this man is no more, he has ceased to be, he's expired and gone to meet the Twelve, he's a stiff, bereft of life he rests in peace, if he wasn't stuck in Ultima Thule he'd be pushing up HQ daisies, his metabolic processes are now history, he's off the twig, he's kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined the Lifestream eternal, this is an ex-Zenos".

[KageTokage]

His death does raise the question of what's going to happen to his soul assuming it has actually gone to the aetherial sea. Would an artificial Echo also persist through a reincarnation?

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that they'll return to the matter of the Echo and perhaps figure out precisely what it is, rather then just leaving it as some vaguely defined power normally attributed to Ancient souls.

We still don't even know what exactly makes them different from conventional souls aside from a presumably higher "density" and some difference in aetheric wavelengths that can be replicated.

[Liam_Harper]

Overall I'm disappointed.

Not because Zenos was a well written character, he should have been dropped in Stormblood, but more the fact they dragged him out for 2 expansions and could have made him an interesting character and never did. I was sort of waiting the entire time for his big part or interesting development ...and it was just 2 expansions where he was a vague background character who didn't fit in anywhere. He got a few tiny hints of potential in Endwalker and then he's gone. It left me thinking "what was the point? They really dragged him all the way for this?".

I guess I had faith in the writers. Everyone said Zenos was bland and one dimensional and I had faith they had a plan for him. That he could be far more intelligent than we realized, that even Fandaniel gravely underestimated him and he was biding his time for the perfect moment.
But no, it simply was bad writing. Disappointing.

[KizuyaKatogami]

A cut line from the 5.5 trailer is indicative of being able to completely rewrite and rerecord an entire expansion? Really?




1. Matsuno didn’t “complain” stop trying to paint things as they aren’t.

2. Claiming those who disagree are just oblivious is a lazy argument.

3. Ishikawa rewrote the story after the others had accepted it. If anything she wasn’t happy with the original and wanted rewrites.

He did complain. He literally took to twitter for it. Also it isn’t really a lazy argument, just what i believe to be the truth. Don’t expect you to agree though. I didn’t say it was indicative of an entire expansion rewrite, but it’s an example that they are indeed able to change things last minute. They aren’t baby devs, they’re experienced.

Either way this is derailing the original thread and id rather not do that yet again.

[Cleretic]

To my actual feelings on Zenos, I think he went out in a pretty good way for him, and I appreciate the angle they took. His arc in the back end of Endwalker shows that he absolutely had the ability to be a better person, but he wasn't actually interested in that. Essentially, he rejected the notion of a redemption arc to go down the way he wanted, as an enemy. That's an interesting angle that I've never really seen done, it's like the moment at the end of middle-era Sonic games where Eggman briefly helps Sonic, but with finality instead of just returning to a status quo. I like that, I feel like it's very much deliberate and that no other forms of his arc really existed for all too long (and, to be honest, if they did I don't think they would've been as good).

Bringing him back after it would actually take away from that, I think, because that'd take away the unique element and put him in exactly that Dr. Eggman-style villain role that he subverted.

[Absimiliard]

This^

Additionally, bringing him back would completely devalue what was undoubtedly one of the best death scenes Square-Enix ever pulled off. So rarely do we see villains get sent off to the afterlife in so appropriate a way. It fit both the expansion and Zenos quite well. The implied use of Dynamis to save the WoL at the last second was just the icing on the cake, and even that would be heavily devalued if he were to come back yet again.

[Jillian]

To my actual feelings on Zenos, I think he went out in a pretty good way for him, and I appreciate the angle they took. His arc in the back end of Endwalker shows that he absolutely had the ability to be a better person, but he wasn't actually interested in that. Essentially, he rejected the notion of a redemption arc to go down the way he wanted, as an enemy. That's an interesting angle that I've never really seen done, it's like the moment at the end of middle-era Sonic games where Eggman briefly helps Sonic, but with finality instead of just returning to a status quo. I like that, I feel like it's very much deliberate and that no other forms of his arc really existed for all too long (and, to be honest, if they did I don't think they would've been as good).

Bringing him back after it would actually take away from that, I think, because that'd take away the unique element and put him in exactly that Dr. Eggman-style villain role that he subverted.

This was my take on it and I think they did it fairly well. Either way, good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm glad he's not coming back.

[EaraGrace]

To my actual feelings on Zenos, I think he went out in a pretty good way for him, and I appreciate the angle they took. His arc in the back end of Endwalker shows that he absolutely had the ability to be a better person, but he wasn't actually interested in that. Essentially, he rejected the notion of a redemption arc to go down the way he wanted, as an enemy. That's an interesting angle that I've never really seen done, it's like the moment at the end of middle-era Sonic games where Eggman briefly helps Sonic, but with finality instead of just returning to a status quo. I like that, I feel like it's very much deliberate and that no other forms of his arc really existed for all too long (and, to be honest, if they did I don't think they would've been as good).

Bringing him back after it would actually take away from that, I think, because that'd take away the unique element and put him in exactly that Dr. Eggman-style villain role that he subverted.

The moment he said “Would you be happier had I a good reason?” was the moment I really felt like they were pulling him in a direction that made him interesting to me again. It belied a self awareness that made him more than the trope, and his aid with Meteion sealed that. Bringing him back would cheapen that, though echo flashbacks or corpse possession would still be fine if they made him sufficiently different. Having him become like his father and turn into a monster post death by some other being would be perfect if they wanted to go down that route I think.

[QT_Melon]

Overall I'm disappointed.

Not because Zenos was a well written character, he should have been dropped in Stormblood, but more the fact they dragged him out for 2 expansions and could have made him an interesting character and never did. I was sort of waiting the entire time for his big part or interesting development ...and it was just 2 expansions where he was a vague background character who didn't fit in anywhere. He got a few tiny hints of potential in Endwalker and then he's gone. It left me thinking "what was the point? They really dragged him all the way for this?".

I guess I had faith in the writers. Everyone said Zenos was bland and one dimensional and I had faith they had a plan for him. That he could be far more intelligent than we realized, that even Fandaniel gravely underestimated him and he was biding his time for the perfect moment.
But no, it simply was bad writing. Disappointing.

Yeah that's been my thoughts as well. They had worse characters that actually came out better than him due to writing so I was kinda hoping that they'd pull another moment of brilliance. I was fine with how he first ended in Stormblood, but was baffled on his comeback since then. If he was more directly involved than being the "meanwhile" guy for an expansion I probably would have felt better about his final ending spot. It would have made it worth it. But being background boy really hurt that. I actually thought due to how they were able to work on past lesser characters - they would have done something better. I guess you win some and lose some.

[Cleretic]

The moment he said “Would you be happier had I a good reason?” was the moment I really felt like they were pulling him in a direction that made him interesting to me again. It belied a self awareness that made him more than the trope, and his aid with Meteion sealed that. Bringing him back would cheapen that, though echo flashbacks or corpse possession would still be fine if they made him sufficiently different. Having him become like his father and turn into a monster post death by some other being would be perfect if they wanted to go down that route I think.

I kind of assume we'll get some Echo flashbacks that wrap up his story's loose ends while still letting it end in the way it did. We still haven't learned his Avatar's deal, which they've suggested exists, and that design is way too cool for them to only use in like, one shot.