SAM changes - I don’t mind it

[IdowhatIwant]

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

Everything has an outlier, cause a majority of those classes with low APM are not that engaging and have a fairly low skill ceiling.

[ForteNightshade]

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

That entirely depends on the job and how they're built. Black Mage's core gameplay works with fewer buttons because it's essentially rotating through the same handful of spells. If you were to say, take away oGCDs from Dark Knight, it'd become incredibly boring as those oGCDs are all that separate it from being a 123 job that occasionally hits Bloodspiller. Furthermore, Casters, in general, have less APM due to casting.

In the case of Samurai, without Kaiten, the Kenki is rendered completely meaningless. You could delete it alongside Kaiten and just give Shinten a cooldown with three charges or something. Instead of expanding on the job gauge to make it feel connected, they're going in the opposite direction and making it pointless. Per for the course though considering several job gauges exist to look pretty and not offer much else.

We should have options. If you feel overwhelmed then don't use that ability or use another job. I can't play BLM properly yet I don't applaud if they would dumb it down. And in a game where dumbing down is the norm now it is worrisome to say the least.

Exactly!

This has been a major complaint I, and several others, have had since Shadowbringers. Take Bard, for example. The most beloved DPS in Stormblood. They removed all of its nuanced gameplay aspects largely to attract people who weren't interested in the job to begin with instead of catering towards its existing playerbase. Astro has suffered the same problem. The devs keep trying to coax players who aren't interested in x job by dumbing them down without considering how this impacts the enjoyment for those already playing said job.

[Payadopa]

We should have options. If you feel overwhelmed then don't use that ability or use another job. I can't play BLM properly yet I don't applaud if they would dumb it down. And in a game where dumbing down is the norm now it is worrisome to say the least.

[Gemina]

Samurai's damage was only low at low. The subsequent buffs in 6.08 brought it back to being the strongest Melee and highest ranked speed kill job once again. It's single-handedly brought Dancer back into the meta. In other words, the job was perfectly fine. I suspect the only reason we're losing Kaiten is due to baby players not pressing it, thus their damage falls behind. Which is rather laughable when you consider inexperienced or outright bad players aren't going to be pressing their buttons properly anyway. At this point, it always seems like the change is an excuse for guaranteed crits to be a thing because "OMG BIG NUMBERS!!!!!"

You basically just reworded my post. "Lowest common denominator", remember? You just rather shift the blame onto the playerbase, which I believe the dev team is trying to avoid.
And in my opinion, SAM was not fine. It was fine prior to EW with very few miniscule issues. Charges being given to Meikyo and Tsubame, and then giving them what is essentially a juiced up Goken as a cap skill with yet another mandatory follow up skill all feels horribly tacked on, and like they just had no idea what to give SAM.

You mention that SAM brought DNC back into the meta. This is somehow a good thing? That one job needs/relies on another to be made valid? That is a huge failure on the part of the devs who had stated that they want to avoid such synergies because of the forced comps, and/or exclusion of jobs from content. Engagement is tossed around these forums like a trendy buzzword, and I oft wonder if people even know what it means. It makes me wonder how many players find DNC or other jobs to be very engaging, only to have a door slammed in their face due to the meta.

You also mentioned that it is a lazy change that brings no benefit. However, I already mentioned the benefit it brings. You can choose to not accept or acknowledge that benefit, but it remains one all the same. As for the laziness and thoughtlessness, I am willing to wager that Kaiten has been on the chopping block for some time now. They just finally swung the axe

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

My statements on APM has nothing to do with engagement. I never stated higher APM = more engagement, and can and quite often be the exact opposite of that. The point is higher APM jobs lead to a greater margin for error. Arguments can be made about the number of skills that go into the APM e.g. SCH and SMN who have similar APMs, but the former will have about 70-90% of that using 2-3 skills, opposed to SMN which will be use much more. It doesn't change the fact that the more times you have to push a button, the more chances there are to press the wrong one.

Speaking of BLM in particular, I don't have a lot of experience playing the job, but do have enough to know that it is a unique job, and an exception to several rules within FFXIV such as having cast times longer than the GCD, greater penalty for movement/interruptions, and DPS being greatly facilitated when they have aware and cooperative party members (they don't needlessly compromise your position, healer knows you will soak avoidable but non-lethal damage, etc.). While I already did mention it was never my intention to imply higher APM means more engagement, even if it were BLM has other intangible factors at play.

The job is without question the most difficult that I've tried to pick up, and easily the one where hours of practice on a dummy just gets thrown right out the window in a true encounter. And that leads to my last point that difficulty =/= engagement either. Things like this is make me wonder if peeps even know what this word means. If you look it up, "difficulty" is nowhere to be found. Job design is but one aspect to what should be leading to your engagement with any particular encounter in FFXIV. A lot of things contribute to engagement including but not limited to the background, the music, level of difficulty, the job/role you're using, the job/role others are using, and your own level of awareness to the encounter (first time, still learning, cleaning up a bit on a certain mech, farmed to death).

Job difficulty can and will take away from the other aspects of the battle that you can and should be engaged in. Even to the point that you can't really enjoy the music, background, boss design because you're too damned focused on not screwing up.

I don't know. Perhaps it is just me that puts thought into these things?

edit: really long post lol. But wanted to address you both accordingly. Removed a question meant for someone else. My bad.

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Afternoon everyone,

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities

You wanna know whats a unnecessary cluttered ability? The Shoha's and Third Eye but they are left untouched.

[Gemina]

In the case of Samurai, without Kaiten, the Kenki is rendered completely meaningless. You could delete it alongside Kaiten and just give Shinten a cooldown with three charges or something. Instead of expanding on the job gauge to make it feel connected, they're going in the opposite direction and making it pointless. Per for the course though considering several job gauges exist to look pretty and not offer much else.

In addition, we also can't forget that [another kenki spender] Seigan was also removed. Leaving four skills that utilize the gauge from six, with the stronger ST/AoE variant also being placed on a 120s CD. When I compare this to a job like SCH who actually has a useless gauge, the differences between the two should be enough to let you know that the kenki gauge still has a place on your UI. There aren't much situations for DPS players other than 'threat = Single Target, or Multiple Enemies, so additional spenders just adds skills and has you use math during combat. Favorable for some, shunned by others. It's just how it is, but the impact is not as great as you are making it out to be.

Exactly!

This has been a major complaint I, and several others, have had since Shadowbringers. Take Bard, for example. The most beloved DPS in Stormblood. They removed all of its nuanced gameplay aspects largely to attract people who weren't interested in the job to begin with instead of catering towards its existing playerbase. Astro has suffered the same problem. The devs keep trying to coax players who aren't interested in x job by dumbing them down without considering how this impacts the enjoyment for those already playing said job.

So getting more players interested in the job is a bad thing? I am quite sure it is not the dev's intention to deter veteran players from their favorite jobs. It still happens though. I played AST through HW and SB and hated the design enough to bench it. The changes brought about with ShB made me love the job. The changes to BRD also enticed me to give it a try, and I plan to max out now because it feels like expert level crafting but with combat added to it. I loved SAM in SB and ShB, and changes in EW has had it fall out of favor. So which is wrong, and which is right? What do you classify me as because I favor the changes to AST and BRD? Am I a bad player, and don't know diddly squat about how a job should play? See, there are a lot of implications being made here.

I won't pretend to know the answer. I've been on the receiving end of being disappointed with the direction of job design for some of the jobs in FFXIV as well. But again, I have also picked up other jobs I was previously not interested in, or lost interest in it based on changes to them. Is the same not also true with you?

[Gemina]

You wanna know whats a unnecessary cluttered ability? The Shoha's and Third Eye but they are left untouched.

Agreed. Without Seigan, Third Eye is not a good skill. Easily rectified by changing the skill into Seigan when the barrier is struck.

So... Shoha and Shoha II, which animation stays, and which one goes? I like them both, but who is in the know?

[Lily_Skye]

Afternoon everyone,

Hope we’re all thrilled for next week’s 6.1!

I’ve noticed the trend in which most players are adamant about “Hissatu: Kaiten” being removed.

Personally I am far pleased at the Dev’s approach in updating certain job’s stats & leaning towards simplicity to have less abilities & feel more pragmatic, therefore helps to feel more immersive with the game & not feel as overwhelming by the number of abilities which hoards the hotbar.

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities & instead remove some in turn to upgrade job’s stats without killing job identity.

SAM is my 2nd main & I am hyped for it.

Why are certain portion of players opposed to it?

Personally I don’t see it killing its job identity as SAM already has enough abilities as it is.

PS: Not trolling nor stirring up the flame. Just felt getting it out of my chest as I actually support this

Agree I hate cluttered abilities so much, they should start doing this for all jobs

[Dzian]

That entirely depends on the job and how they're built.

Many of the Jobs were built fine. And even played well.

But the obsession with balance and homogenization has bust them all beyond any recognition..

A fair amount of players said years back screw balance make jobs unique and diversified. But then other players were afraid that if they did that there job might not be optimal in a piece of content..

But now years later more and more people are on the side of screw balance and homogenization make jobs unique and fun..

I'd kill for 4.0 astrologian or pld. 3.0 ninja. Shadewalker smokescreen goad. Actual utility tools that could be used to help tanks stay in dps stances..

Now it's just damage damage damage boring boring boring

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Many of the Jobs were built fine. And even played well.

But the obsession with balance and homogenization has bust them all beyond any recognition..

A fair amount of players said years back screw balance make jobs unique and diversified. But then other players were afraid that if they did that there job might not be optimal in a piece of content..

But now years later more and more people are on the side of screw balance and homogenization make jobs unique and fun..

I'd kill for 4.0 astrologian or pld. 3.0 ninja. Shadewalker smokescreen goad. Actual utility tools that could be used to help tanks stay in dps stances..

Now it's just damage damage damage boring boring boring

Was it really unique and fun when you had 2 bards, a drg, and x as your dps composition though?

Like, I get it, diversity and uniqueness is fun, but at the expense of gameplay? pass.