What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

We see in 5.2 when exploring the Anamnesys archives that she quite literally got more ancients involved and tried to get other convocation members involved on the Hydaelyn project. She was absolutely not working alone, it was a whole group of people. Who do you think the original Watcher was? Her confrontation at the temple in Amaurot wtih members of the Zodiark project happened both after Zodiark already did two restorations and also after she had taken on the power of Hydaelyn. You can complain that they didn't explain it a bit better, especially when the post-Elpis cutscene was mostly metaphorical, but that's a bit different

Except it’s unknown whether she told them the whole truth or not.Either way though, she didn’t tell the convocation or attempt to until after the final days had already happened. She had the knowledge to potentially avert it and chose not to. That’s the main problem people have with her and what the OP seems to mean.

[PawPaw]

She definitely told no one on the Convocation, the people who needed to know the most. We are told this by Emet-Selch in ShB, Elidibus in EW and the Watcher on the moon had no idea what the cause of the Final Days was. When asked by Y'shtola if the Ancients ever knew what the source of the issue was, they shake their head and confirm that they did not. So not even her chosen watchdog was told the truth.

I have no reason to believe that she told her followers the truth either. The people in that 5.2 cutscene didn't even seem to be aware that summoning a primal would destroy their souls as they speak about their sadness at her leaving them and how they needed her to lead them. Odd way to speak when you know you'll be dead and gone.

[KageTokage]

Considering that the Watcher states that "her true intentions are unknown even to us", she can't have told them about the actual cause of the Final Days and rather was focused on rallying people against Zodiark to prevent the third round of sacrifices, which ended up having so little actual relevance to her reasoning for causing the Sundering that it felt more like an excuse that would gather followers more readily then the long game she had in mind.

Which is why should've just made her forget everything so it wouldn't seem like she was being deliberately deceptive towards basically everyone.

[AziraSyuren]

Question for the thread;

If you were to take over Ishikawa or Oda's position in the story and rewrite Endwalker to "fix" the story, or an expansion pre-Endwalker, how would you go about it? I'm curious, this isn't even a "well if YOU know so much why don't YOU apply for a job on the msq team!?" type of drag, I just think a lot of people in here have interesting takes on where they would've liked the story to go, and I'd like to hear from anyone who feels like succinctly laying out their do-over plan.

1. Drastically shorten the second Sharlayan section and replace it with another past zone that focused more on Amaurot's internal politics and made it seem much less idyllic than it did so that Venat's actions seemed a little more justified. I also think a lot of the story beats involving Hermes could've landed a bit better if they did this too.
2. Flip the first and second half of the moon zone so Zodiark is confronted at the climax instead of near the beginning.
3. Remove Y'shtola's line of dialogue in UT asking us not to bring the Scions back so nobody can pretend that fake-out heroic sacrifices were the point of that section.
4. Send us off to a few solo instances taking place in ARR/HW/StB zones that showed the effects of the Final Days spreading to them, too. I'd probably drop them in the Thavnair and/or drastically-shortened Sharlayan sections.
5. I'd leave Meteion in, but make the Endsinger herself learn more on the eldritch horror angle by making the sisters encountering something in the depths of space that forced them to become that way instead of mutating into it through despair. This is more about personal preference and less about what I think would improve the quality of the story.

I don't really have that many problems with EW as a whole, tbh. It's still my favorite expac story, but my opinion on Venat's characterization and portrayal has drastically decreased over time so a lot of my improvements would be focused on that. Almost everything else is just for the sake of pacing.

[Starshower]

I personally loved Elpis and the character of Hermes and Meteion... I thought they were very relatable and I felt a close connection to them. I think a lot of the hate I'm seeing is if you can't stand cuteness (cute bunnies and bird girl) you'll dismiss those parts of the story no matter what... but that's on you and your tolerances or suspension of disbelief.


I liked how endwalker was fast paced, like a victory lap for the ending of the saga. It wasn't a well structured story in the sense that it's complete in itself where it would be a good starting point for a new player (heavensward and shadowbringers are this type of neat self contained story). Endwalker depends on everything preceding it. It's not a good starting point or self contained story. But as someone playing trough it, knowing it would tie up the story and lead us to the ending of it, I liked the frenetic pace. We have a lot of things happening fast and unexpectedly, like garlemanld being dealt with so fast (me, personally, can't stand garlemald, already had too much of it with stormblood, sorrows of werlyt, bozja and shb patch interludes) and when the end of tower or babil happened, sending us to the moon so fast felt like things were off the rails, happening too fast, only for shortly after realize zodiark was the first trial!? I liked the exciting pace, and the breaking of expectations. Elpis came straight out of left field. I liked the wild ride feel. However, I don't think the ending was the best possible.


I feel like, for example. 5.3 had a way better ending feel than endwalker's end. However, when comparing expansions, we can't include the patch content, in my opinion. Heavensward had a quite lacklustre ending, with the ambiguous estinien / nidhigg fate. I think it would only feel complete after the dragonsong war ended. And while 5.3 was amazing we can't judge endwalker against the entire shadowbringers yet. Who knows what the patches msq will be like. I think shb was only exciting by the very end, on knolusia pt.2 onwards. Endwalker meanwhile was exciting all the way trough. When making these considerations of player experience as I play trough it all, I'd put Endwalker and Shadowbringers interchangeably at the top, Endwalker for it's exciting story moments every step of the way making it have a breakneck pace that I enjoyed. and Shadowbringers for it's more self contained story that was very well executed. If we add 5.3 it goes to the top, for sure.

[PawPaw]

I think a lot of the hate I'm seeing is if you can't stand cuteness (cute bunnies and bird girl) you'll dismiss those parts of the story no matter what... but that's on you and your tolerances or suspension of disbelief.

Not sure if you're directing this towards this thread or EW criticisms on the web in general but I feel quite confident in saying that rabbits and Meteion have not been a focus of complaints at any point here. An occasional few comments? Yes, but I can't think of anyone for whom they are a cornerstone of their issues.

I can judge EW as it stands right now as the developers have said a few times at this point that there will be no post-EP patches that will wrap up the story the way we have had in the past. 6.1 is the beginning of an entirely new chapter and is not meant to be a continuation of EW. It is done and I am not happy with it and therefore I feel quite safe making my opinions on it known.

I've said this before but EW was the equivalent of a Michael Bay movie, the fast pace and big explosions happening constantly to detract from the fact that the story is a complete mess. I'm happy for you that you were able to enjoy it and loved the "frenetic" feel of it, but it destroyed characterizations and stories that I have loved for years and I can't see the sparkles for all of the mud.

[Theodric]

It's not so much the cute elements in themselves so much as the timing of their appearance. I doubt FF7 would be as well received if, after a certain character's murder, you randomly saw Cloud running around and giggling with a group of talking bunnies. Or if in FF9 when an entire city was destroyed, immediately afterwards the party just shrugged and never mentioned it again.

Up until Endwalker I quite liked that FFXIV hadn't gone down the same path of WoW where things just happened with minimal build up or explanation and I don't think it was a good way to have the finale of a decade long story just rapidly move from one event to the next with minimal time to breathe. Especially with the fanservice stacked towards characters that already get the lion's share of attention...and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[aveyond-dreams]

I've said this before but EW was the equivalent of a Michael Bay movie, the fast pace and big explosions happening constantly to detract from the fact that the story is a complete mess.

Precisely this. The moment I started thinking critically about what I had just experienced, I found myself questioning so much. My belief is that a combination of factors from the rabidness of the twitter character fanclubs and the emotionally difficult situation brought on by COVID ultimately led for an internal push for a "safe" story that was carried by fast pasted, though illogical chains of events.

It's not so much the cute elements in themselves so much as the timing of their appearance. I doubt FF7 would be as well received if, after a certain character's murder, you randomly saw Cloud running around and giggling with a group of talking bunnies. Or if in FF9 when an entire city was destroyed, immediately afterwards the party just shrugged and never mentioned it again.

Up until Endwalker I quite liked that FFXIV hadn't gone down the same path of WoW where things just happened with minimal build up or explanation and I don't think it was a good way to have the finale of a decade long story just rapidly move from one event to the next with minimal time to breathe. Especially with the fanservice stacked towards characters that already get the lion's share of attention...and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

What I would give to return to the days of Heavensward when we still had a team of writers who were unafraid of allowing characters to exit the story once their roles were over, and for people's sacrifices to carry meaning. A less bloated cast of more distinct characters with a narrative that didn't tread so much on abstract nothingness.

[RyuDragnier]

What I would give to return to the days of Heavensward when we still had a team of writers who were unafraid of allowing characters to exit the story once their roles were over, and for people's sacrifices to carry meaning. A less bloated cast of more distinct characters with a narrative that didn't tread so much on abstract nothingness.

Well you might get that back soon, considering that writer's work with FF16 is almost done, probably.

[anhaato]

DISCLAIMER this is mostly me just musing, no need to respond or humor me.

But this is all predicated on there being a Garlemald expansion before, with adequate time to foreshadow dynamis to begin with through our escapades in Thavnair during that expansion, as we learn their theory behind akasha.

I've been thinking deeply about how a Garlemald expansion would have worked. Ishikawa said the final boss would've been Anima, which makes me think that the expansion may have been something like us engaging Garlemald in war on their own home turf, during which Zenos then assassinates Varis and THEN their self destruction begins, and they unveil Anima as the final boss (and being used for something far more nefarious than just traveling to the damn moon). All the while, Radz-at-han would serve as our hideout because of their neutrality with the empire. Keep our presence there private and then travel north to reach mainland Ilsabard. Radz-at-han in this case would be the large city with the marketboard and whatnot, what it SHOULD have been since the beginning because it's supposed to be a prosperous and bustling trade city. All of that said, I think the patch quests would need Elidibus' presence. Upon review I think it is reasonable to think that Elidibus was offed too soon, it would've been cool to get post-Garlemald conclusion patch quests that involve him going fully cray cray jumping back into Zodiark's core so we can fight him THEN for 6.3's finale trial, not as some throwaway trial on the moon. The "oh shit" reaction from the player realizing we just put the Final Days back into motion would've made INSANE lead-up to 7.0 Endwalker.

6.0 zones could be something like Thavnair, Garlemald's capitol (as a zone rather than a hub to express how huge and unsafe it is), the outer mountains (forgot the name), the Eblan Rime, Ghimlyt/Werlyt, and Nhalmasque. There's also possible room to split Thavnair into two zones, or throw Corvos in there (though I'd prefer saving that for later). The end hub would be an area within the capitol that's being reclaimed and rebuilt by the populace. This is just spitballing, the point is it would've opened up the opportunity to show way more of Ilsabard than we get now. Perhaps around level 83 there'd be a trial in Thavnair, maybe Ganesha based on the elephant god statue there? Or the Magus Sisters? Maybe there could even be a subplot about Radz actually being completely shady because of their dealings in death-cheating alchemy, like they could have secret communications with the empire which aided them in developing the Resonants, and they could be leaking our whereabouts to them. The eye motifs everywhere seriously had me suspecting that they were a surveillance state of some sort. So many missed opportunities...

Then we hit 7.0, the real Endwalker. With Thavnair, Garlemald, and Radz-at-han removed from the equation we now have room to throw in 2 zones in the unsundered world. Then we can develop an ACTUAL storyline about us going back to save their star from total destruction and create a better timeline for them, all while we pick up knowledge on Ancient magicks to aid us in our fight to save our own world. I'm thinking Elpis, true Amaurot, and something else I can't think of right now. A trial in the unsundered world would hit SO hard. Also, Sharlayan can be portrayed as an actual bastion of actually astonishing knowledge this time. I'm talking they know about every calamity (Gerun Oracles from 2015, anyone?), they know about the unsundered world, they know about creation magic but don't have the ability to harness it, and so on, because it was given to them by Venat who guided Nyunkrepf as her "prophet" to found the city.

Also, spend AMPLE cutscenes on a look into the past to see how things happened that lead up to the sundering, every bit of moral objectionability from Venat. Make it so that the Final Days turned her self in that timeline into someone stone cold and ruthless, make her nothing but gray, make her a presence you want to defeat, make her blessing feel more like a curse. But at the same time, give us the impression that it was actually a choice she was forced to make, not one she chose out of forcing her beliefs on everyone. She tried everything, and this was what had to happen in her eyes. It's such typical JRPG stuff, I know, but this is a JRPG so I expect the finest of JRPG ungodliness. Have us revive Zodiark from his post-defeat aetherial remains and communicate with him as close as we can get to how he was upon his first summoning, make us realize that he was not created to be a tool of evil but one of protection, and he can offer his protection to aid us in our battle against the Eldritch horror that is the embodiment of despair AND NOT SOME BIRD GIRL. Make Zodiark and Hydaelyn unite to empower us to, with the help of the Ancients we enlisted the help of by timeline-hopping, and any other superpowers, reach the manifestation of our galaxy's dead worlds' despair NOT THE WHOLE UNIVERSE at the center of the galaxy in the face of a supermassive black hole. Hydaelyn's gift of the power to give form to the formless would then be used not to bring our friends back but to give form to this abomination so we can defeat it. Hydaelyn and Zodiark unite for the final hit against this monster, and Zodiark finally dissipates for good, leaving no traces behind. It's then, after the manifestation of despair is finally ended by our combined might, that we challenge to free ourselves from her tempering once and for all. THAT would be the final level 100 (or 99 for JRPG tingz) of 7.0, the grand conclusion of Endwalker. As she fades, she tells us that we passed her test and the fate of the sundered star can be left in the hands of humanity. As much as we resent her for certain actions, we still thank her for all she did to keep our world safe. Then our happy little feel-good ending really does that, it makes us feel good. We actually feel like the world is saved and each of our encounters were meaningful.

Well, this is what I would have liked at least. I was hoping for this to be the story direction when it was announced, but I should've known there was no way they'd cover all of this in a single expansion, not even a large portion of all of this. This is just a very long way for me to illustrate what I would've done if I was in charge of the story direction. Agree or disagree with my vision, that's fine.

Edit: Meteion coming into contact with despair and being corrupted was not a bad idea whatsoever, she just shouldn't have been the final boss. If she could be a level 87 trial (I know trials happen at the second to last level in msq nowadays but Bismarck was level 57 so it's not unprecedented) instead of the final boss, and at that point she'd already have carried out her most important purpose of telling us what's happening in planets beyond our own and why there's so much destructive dynamis about.