What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[SpectrePhantasia]

Like I said, it's just lazy writing for turn-your-brain-off fanservice.

Definitely, they got a little too comfortable pulling Emet out at times so people could be like "Hey, I know that guy! That's the guy I like!" without really giving him the depth of character he had previously. This, I think, pretty inarguably cheapens his other two "send offs" that came before in Shadowbringers. In my ideal world, the last we'd see of him physically would have been in the Seat of Sacrifice, but to be honest, I agree with many in saying that his presence carried EW so much, that to remove him and give him a more graceful end might have made things even worse.

[Lauront]

Exactly this. Dislike for Venat's choice to not tell anyone can be more productively focused on the awful Time Loop. Venat chooses not to tell people because she knows Fandaniel will be instrumental in developing the plan to summon Zodiark. She chooses to sunder the world because she knows the people of the future (namely you) will be able to rise up and defeat Meteion, instead of trying to go back to their "perfect world" where they forget sorrow or sadness or whatever.

The entire Elpis storyline falls apart because you can see the iron hand of the writers forcing it to fit into the Time Loop.

I'd agree that the focus should be on that, with the caveat that I wouldn't go as far as to say it absolves her, due to the fact that she says she'll take nothing for granted, and because Yoshi moots it as a possibility that she worked to actively preserve the timeline, thus I'd say her actions can still be questioned in their own right (and they do word it as a lot of it being based on her belief about things.) Where the time loop muddles things up is that it certainly gives the impression that she has a "fallback" option, meaning she could afford to give up on her people when they didn't respond the way she wanted (again, the rationale for the lack of concrete evidence presented to them is shaky due to other plot elements and her own "nothing is impossible" mentality, but certainly some do take the time loop as a plausible reason for it), and coupled with not subjecting her to the memory loss, they essentially place a lot of what is to follow directly into her hands.

I was surprised then they actually bit the bullet to do that, and it only exacerbates how dissonant her treatment within the story is. So it's a combination of a lot of things and it ends up coming across as really sloppy. There's ways they could've written her (e.g. subjecting her to the memory loss) that would've worked better and really, why involve a time loop when you have the Echo as a narrative device... unless the idea is to establish an AU. But they didn't. Unless there's one coming...

There's other issues with the time stuff as well, like the fact that things are just the way they are because you told her, rather than having an independent cause shown (as mentioned the unsundered escaping), and there's the potential for that to be abused further. Coupled with the fact that just one expansion before they showed an AU could form out of such time shenanigans, it made it that much worse to many, myself included.

[Ixon]

I like hypotheticals for the sake of discussion, so spare me a moment if you can: Let's say Venat warned the people of Etheirys of Metion, who she is, what she became, so on. What would the people have Etheirys done? Personally, with what I have seen, I think they would have done about the same as they did for the Final Days. Construct a way to protect their star at all cost. Hermes would have been little help, due to grief or guilt of his creation, even if he explained what may have happened, he would have not found the will to aid them past that initial explanation based on how I see him as a character. And of course if Venat attempted to explain our whole time traveling thing, that would have opened up a whole new can of worms. With this information, I can see the Convocation working on a means to save their start over chasing after Metion to the edge of the universe. This addresses the immediate issue(The Final days), but not the problem itself(hopelessness), and considering tales akin to our Azem charging into a volcano were taken as very extreme and outlandish, I see no reason to believe they would actually put forth any efforts to stop Metion over just protecting their star assuming they could even defeat Metion in the first place.

While Etheirys might have been saved, there would have potentially existed some issues. First, Metion would have still existed, belting out the Song of Oblivion for all eternity that we know of. So even if Etheirys was shielded forever, her presences means everything else in the cosmos dies(very sad that). Second, we have no idea if Etheirys could even come up with a permanent solution to the Song of Oblivion, one that wouldn't deteriorate over time like waves against a rock. Third, if the answer to saving their planet was still Zodiark, I still have my doubts that it would have worked perfectly according to plan. Not to mention the effects of the all powerful primal "tugging" at the strings at their potential of being tempered. Lastly, there is still the issue of them becoming doomed like every other civilization Metion discovered, whether it do to similar effects like The Plenty, or maybe more internal conflicts involving Zodiark if that was used as a solution(I'd think that even with their knowledge, the "tugging" of Zodiark would still result in potential zealots, leading to infighting, and perhaps an all out civil war of Zodiark vs No-Zodiark like we were led to believe in ShB, or perhaps something worse).

Not to mention the main problem we were pointed to wasn't Metion, but the overall despair that brought the end to all those civilizations in one way or another. The best way forward, especially in the eyes of Venat, to prevent BOTH the Final Days and the potential of a "The Plenty" outcome, was to accept despair and find meaning in life accompanied by it. If Venat believed that the alerting of Metion would only bring about a temporary solution and detract the people of Etheirys from the main problem at hand, then it would make sense for her to NOT tell them the truth of the matter and instead have them focus on the root of the issue of that being existential dread. I only think this way due to the Elpis cut scene, where Venat is confronting a group of people on Ethirys, pleading for them to accept despair, accept loss, and move forward regardless. When the people chose not to tackle the main issue and instead chose a way to shield themselves from it, she most likely thought that they were inevitably doomed, either immediately or in the far future.

However, when our character regales our adventures with Venat, through our story we seemingly prove that we are a people who meet that criteria. A people who embrace despairs inevitability and push forward again, and again. So, with Venat having the knowledge she had, knowing that that the solution was to tackle the main issue of despair head on to prevent both destruction via Metion and to also circumvent the outcome of many other civilizations. Keeping Metions knowledge a secret was part of her own "test" to see if the current people of Ehteirys were capable of overcoming what stopped so many before them. So in the Elpis cut scene when Venat pleads for them to tackle the main issue at hand, and they basically say no, she knows that there exists in a post-sundered future people who would have answered yes, and thus elected to sunder the star. Knowing that there were people more than just our character, who would tackle despair head on, who wouldn't think twice about going out to the edge of the universe,(plus there is that whole "we are better at dynamis than you" thing), who were probably the best bet on a not doomed future.

I've been reading this thread for a while, so I know many of the counter arguments, concerns, and plot holes that exist. However this thought processes make sense to me in what they might have been attempting to portray that fits the narrative of the current story. Hopefully we get more information later on, through perhaps Pandemonium, that expands or details what we have a little better, before it is all dropped for something new.

[WildTamarind]

Okay. Im confused. Why are people saying Venat sucks because she didnt give her people a fighting chance? There is no fighting chance. Meteion uses their creation magic against them and they themselves cannot manipulate dynamis. We sundered can because we are sundered. Its how we survived Ultima Thule and defeated Meteion. That was the point. What could the ancients do to stop Meteion at full strength when she returned? Nothing that Im aware of. Shes literaly their kryptonite. And alerting them to their impending doom could alter in ways that could backfire hard.

And to be clesr I dont really care for Venat. I preffered it when she was just Hydalyn.

[Nekokaori]

Okay. Im confused. Why are people saying Venat sucks because she didnt give her people a fighting chance? There is no fighting chance. Meteion uses their creation magic against them and they themselves cannot manipulate dynamis. We sundered can because we are sundered. Its how we survived Ultima Thule and defeated Meteion. That was the point. What could the ancients do to stop Meteion at full strength when she returned? Nothing that Im aware of. Shes literaly their kryptonite. And alerting them to their impending doom could alter in ways that could backfire hard.

And to be clesr I dont really care for Venat. I preffered it when she was just Hydalyn.

they made METEION they could have just easily created a group of 7 brothers just like her to destory her.. they were CREATORS

they could created something could have eat the bird like some kinda anti- emotional energy snake that just eats her in one bite..

[KizuyaKatogami]

Okay. Im confused. Why are people saying Venat sucks because she didnt give her people a fighting chance? There is no fighting chance. Meteion uses their creation magic against them and they themselves cannot manipulate dynamis. We sundered can because we are sundered. Its how we survived Ultima Thule and defeated Meteion. That was the point. What could the ancients do to stop Meteion at full strength when she returned? Nothing that Im aware of. Shes literaly their kryptonite. And alerting them to their impending doom could alter in ways that could backfire hard.

And to be clesr I dont really care for Venat. I preffered it when she was just Hydalyn.

Because the story doesn’t go a good job at making it seem like the ancients were utterly hopeless. If the dynamis=lb theory is true, well we know that in some way they are capable of manipulating it. However even if not, they are capable of creating beings that can manipulate it, and they could do so to combat Meteion. Zodiark was able to keep her away from Etheirys for 12k+ years and that was while he was sundered.

The problem is she goes on about not losing hope, about making the impossible possible, yet she doesn’t apply this to her own people. Also the whole sundered can manipulate dynamis thing is a bit wonky. People seem to forget the WoL and scions aren’t wholly sundered. Iirc the scions are 8/14 and the wol is 9/14. Yet they can manipulate dynamis freely? In that case then at 14/14 they should be able to manipulate it as well, it would just be harder.

[tokinokanatae]

I've been reading this thread for a while, so I know many of the counter arguments, concerns, and plot holes that exist. However this thought processes make sense to me in what they might have been attempting to portray that fits the narrative of the current story. Hopefully we get more information later on, through perhaps Pandemonium, that expands or details what we have a little better, before it is all dropped for something new.

I think it's absolutely possible that what you outlined in your hypothetical could have come to pass. For all their good qualities, the Ancients are characterized as a people with remarkably little curiosity about places that aren't Etheirys, so there is a very real risk that when confronted with the idea that Meteion is singing doom towards them that they will focus their efforts on surrounding the planet with noise dampening panels and the rest of the universe can, uh...do the best they can, I guess?

On the other hand, since Etheirys was always the target and the other planets got caught in the crossfire, it makes sense to first secure the safety of Etheirys before debating over what to do about the Problem of Meteion. I do think the Ancients would feel enough responsibility to want to confront the issue--if only because the threat could potentially become powerful enough to overcome their defenses--but also because of what we see in Amaurot. Even when the Sound was "other people's problems", the idea that they wouldn't send what assistance they had was just an idle debate in the halls of rhetoric, not a course of action taken seriously by either of the participants in the debate.

Finally, the biggest issue is that the scenario you outlined is only a hypothetical because Venat didn't do what you suggested. If things had played out the way you outlined, I think a lot of us in the thread would have been a lot less angry with Venat. We would have gotten the feeling that she worked early and fast to try to save her people, only choosing to Sunder when it appeared that all hope was truly lost. It's an entirely different matter to come in and berate people for not properly facing a despair they weren't allowed to prepare for.

[CrownySuccubus]

I'd agree that the focus should be on that, with the caveat that I wouldn't go as far as to say it absolves her, due to the fact that she says she'll take nothing for granted, and because Yoshi moots it as a possibility that she worked to actively preserve the timeline, thus I'd say her actions can still be questioned in their own right (and they do word it as a lot of it being based on her belief about things.) Where the time loop muddles things up is that it certainly gives the impression that she has a "fallback" option, meaning she could afford to give up on her people when they didn't respond the way she wanted (again, the rationale for the lack of concrete evidence presented to them is shaky due to other plot elements and her own "nothing is impossible" mentality, but certainly some do take the time loop as a plausible reason for it), and coupled with not subjecting her to the memory loss, they essentially place a lot of what is to follow directly into her hands.

Yeah, that's exactly why I've repeated express that I wish they'd given the option to tell her, "No. Your plan is stupid. At least warn the Convocation". Because the whole "Nothing is certain" statement sounds ridiculous when Venat chooses to not do the primary thing that would change history. Like, she has a surefire option that would 100% make sure the future does not got the same, and she chooses NOT to take it to make sure that one particular aspect of the future remains unchanged.

There's ways they could've written her (e.g. subjecting her to the memory loss) that would've worked better and really, why involve a time loop when you have the Echo as a narrative device... unless the idea is to establish an AU. But they didn't. Unless there's one coming...

That's my hope. I'm still holding out for the chance "their" Venat (as in, the one that should still be around within Elpis) will come to actually abide by the whole "the future is not set" viewpoint and at least save her timeline. It's too late for us, because "our" Hydaelyn was a dingus....but there's still time to save her people.

I like hypotheticals for the sake of discussion, so spare me a moment if you can: Let's say Venat warned the people of Etheirys of Metion, who she is, what she became, so on. What would the people have Etheirys done?

This question is basically irrelevant, based on the argument of self-determination. The people of Etheirys deserved a chance to have all the relevant information to chart the course of their own destiny. If that destiny led them to destruction, then so be it. But they deserved the chance to prove everyone wrong.

We're talking about a situation in which one person decided they knew what was best for everyone and kept them ignorant, and then judged them and their fitness to live when they made decisions based on information they didn't know. What else do you call that besides tyranny?

[Lauront]

On the other hand, since Etheirys was always the target and the other planets got caught in the crossfire, it makes sense to first secure the safety of Etheirys before debating over what to do about the Problem of Meteion. I do think the Ancients would feel enough responsibility to want to confront the issue--if only because the threat could potentially become powerful enough to overcome their defenses--but also because of what we see in Amaurot. Even when the Sound was "other people's problems", the idea that they wouldn't send what assistance they had was just an idle debate in the halls of rhetoric, not a course of action taken seriously by either of the participants in the debate.

Finally, the biggest issue is that the scenario you outlined is only a hypothetical because Venat didn't do what you suggested. If things had played out the way you outlined, I think a lot of us in the thread would have been a lot less angry with Venat. We would have gotten the feeling that she worked early and fast to try to save her people, only choosing to Sunder when it appeared that all hope was truly lost. It's an entirely different matter to come in and berate people for not properly facing a despair they weren't allowed to prepare for.

I think if they were given the full account of what really was at stake, they may have even re-oriented their philosophy to re-populating some of those other worlds as they took on a custodian role once Meteion was defeated. A lot of these worlds were already barren, but the ancients had a gift in being able to create life.

[Ixon]

I think it's absolutely possible that what you outlined in your hypothetical could have come to pass. For all their good qualities, the Ancients are characterized as a people with remarkably little curiosity about places that aren't Etheirys, so there is a very real risk that when confronted with the idea that Meteion is singing doom towards them that they will focus their efforts on surrounding the planet with noise dampening panels and the rest of the universe can, uh...do the best they can, I guess?

On the other hand, since Etheirys was always the target and the other planets got caught in the crossfire, it makes sense to first secure the safety of Etheirys before debating over what to do about the Problem of Meteion. I do think the Ancients would feel enough responsibility to want to confront the issue--if only because the threat could potentially become powerful enough to overcome their defenses--but also because of what we see in Amaurot. Even when the Sound was "other people's problems", the idea that they wouldn't send what assistance they had was just an idle debate in the halls of rhetoric, not a course of action taken seriously by either of the participants in the debate.

Finally, the biggest issue is that the scenario you outlined is only a hypothetical because Venat didn't do what you suggested. If things had played out the way you outlined, I think a lot of us in the thread would have been a lot less angry with Venat. We would have gotten the feeling that she worked early and fast to try to save her people, only choosing to Sunder when it appeared that all hope was truly lost. It's an entirely different matter to come in and berate people for not properly facing a despair they weren't allowed to prepare for.

This is where I feel they could have dedicated more time to it, instead of just a small bit in a cut scene, to solidify that it had to be the choice. For the game to move forward, Etheirys HAD to be sundered, Zodiark and Hydaelyn HAD to exist, and it had to work with the new threat they wanted to push. This is why I hope we get a little more this expansion in whatever form they want to give it to aid in the narrative. We'll see.