What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Ixon]

I'm not sure how fighting Hydaelyn is meant to be a test, especially not when there's a battle in Elpis where the Warrior of Light defeats the vastly more powerful Unsundered version of Venat.

Was she stronger in Elpis than as Hydaelyn? Legitimately curious. On Elpis she was a strong and wise Ancient, but nothing really more. Whereas when we fight her in the final trial, she is the goddess primal Hydaelyn. I know she was weakened over the thousands of years, but she also was still a primal powered by the aether of the Aetherical Sea. Plus I didn't see our fight with her on Elpis more than a playful bout and not her going all in like she might have in her last fight.

[PawPaw]

I was hoping in one of these interviews they'd clarify whether or not Hydaelyn is sundered.

I've seen people saying that someone in the LL said that she was sundered...or maybe it was the Watcher, or both. I don't have screenshots on hand and I don't remember it from the LL but I think the general assumption (which could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time) is that she was sundered.

[Sicno]

It was the Flood of Light mechanic for me. I'm still shocked that's part of the fight.

That too. Did... nobody else see a problem with it?

A fight against an unsundered Hydaelyn wouldn't prove the capability to face Meteion. They also said that she used the last of her energy, the aether from her own soul, so how does that prove we can defeat a being made of predominantly dynamis?

I remember in the last Q&A they mentioned something about Ultima Thule not being an actual physical place, but rather your perception of things come from your own expectations (to justify why we see regular-sized Meteion, Emet and Hythlodaeus) so everything is supposed to work under different rules, dunno how our strength in defeating physical/aetherial beings translates into fighting Meteion. Sundered or unsundered I don't know how her "test" ammounts to anything other than "we're determined", which in this context maaaaaaaaaaaay be what's needed. A strong will. Maybe.

Edit: Maybe it's merely because we believe ourselves capable of beating her more than she believed herself capable of beating us and that perception could have been reinforced by beating Hydaelyn. But considering we've beaten all challenges before was that really needed to color our perception of ourselves?

Plus, it just never made sense to me. A big deal is made of how weak Hydaelyn is and becomes weaker with each rejoining, shouldn't it be the opposite if she were sundered?

I think there's 2 ways this could be interpreted.

On one hand it's not that she gets any weaker or stronger, but rather that because Zodiark is stronger she needs to spend more of her aether into containing him, leaving her weaker to do anything else.

The other way is that regardless of if she gets rejoined or not the blows the calamities inflict upon the star weaken her.

The part about her being sundered or not is very nebulous, on one hand you'd expect if she became the self-proclaimed "will of the star" and she sundered the star she must be sundered too, but then you have details like Ardbert never being able to communicate with her and that she doesn't care at all about the shards, she may just not have a presence there and that's also why she doesn't care about any of those "children".

[Lauront]

That too. Did... nobody else see a problem with it?

I found it comical in the sense that she seemed to really want to give them a dose of trauma... possibly makes sense given her aim, but considering the prior expansion... a bit odd.

As for her (as in Hydaelyn) being sundered, the Watcher confirms this. She herself mentions being unable to confront Zodiark's might without dragging the star into it. It appears to function oddly though, because once the heart/core is gone, all other parts of the primal on the reflections apparently go as well (according to the Q&A they did.) This also implies the core/heart is intact on the Source, which in her case would house her soul, until she draws on it for the 'test'. I suspect they were hinting at something like this with Anima and Varis's body parts being spread out in the towers, with the node towers vanishing when he is put to rest. She is a primal and, unlike Zodiark, not a bound one, so no doubt like Elidibus she could tap into other sources of power if she had to, to strengthen herself - she does say her power is in a constant flux, lending some credibility to this.

[KageTokage]

It really does seem like the bulk of the people playing the game tend to take things at face value judging from how quickly any kind of negativity directed at Venat/Hydaelyn elsewhere tends to be flimsily counter-argued using the Dead Ends reasoning that both Yoshi and Ishikawa mentioned despite so much in-game suggesting the Ancients were not so inflexible; with even their whole ritual of willfully returning to the star being partly meant as a way of allowing fresh ideas/perspectives to come into play.

They could've done more to suggest if not outright explain that they would or already had become self-destructive in their pursuit of perfection, as in the case of the Plenty the fact that they scarcely had a world left to live in suggests that they only got to where they were through immeasurable amounts of sacrifice.

[Lauront]

Indeed, and I think to some degree that was the hope - that the surface level presentation in the MSQ would suffice to avoid portraying Venat as a villain/antagonist, even if her actions would at the least cast her in the usual antagonist light, if not worse. I was quite surprised in all honesty by some of the answers they gave at the Q&As, because I thought they'd double down to defend her, rather than frame it as a matter of her belief while predicating the Plenty as a "probable" fate on the condition that they did not change (fraught as that whole scenario is with its own issues)... and wouldn't you know it, not changing is a function of how little direct evidence they were given, in turn influenced by her beliefs they wouldn't change... Plus don't you know, it's just how those ancients think (in spite of it being antithetical to all we're told of their society and requiring a comparison to post-sundering, jaded Emet and mentally ill Hermes...) I suspect they realised the reception wasn't as unequivocally positive as they had hoped it'd be. Ishikawa at least understood this would be the case with Hermes, but I wonder if she did with Venat (I imagine she probably did), and whether Yoshi did? Before EW he said the story would be even more morally grey than SHB... that much wasn't wrong!

I still see people arguing they were unfeeling robots etc., only Hermes had feelings, they were cruel etc etc (not for one moment reflecting on the sundered's own habits and history in this respect), which to me is ridiculous given their portrayal in the MSQ and sidequests and not really the point the writers were trying to make... generally the points that they do try and present as contributing to the end of the ancients are far more mutable than what your average redditor might want to aver.

[PawPaw]

It really does seem like the bulk of the people playing the game tend to take things at face value judging from how quickly any kind of negativity directed at Venat/Hydaelyn elsewhere tends to be flimsily counter-argued using the Dead Ends reasoning that both Yoshi and Ishikawa mentioned despite so much in-game suggesting the Ancients were not so inflexible; with even their whole ritual of willfully returning to the star being partly meant as a way of allowing fresh ideas/perspectives to come into play.

They could've done more to suggest if not outright explain that they would or already had become self-destructive in their pursuit of perfection, as in the case of the Plenty the fact that they scarcely had a world left to live in suggests that they only got to where they were through immeasurable amounts of sacrifice.

They did such an amazingly terrible job at driving home how "inhuman" the Ancients were between the MSQ and the side quests that I have to wonder if they even consulted each other while they were writing. One path is telling me that these people are so flawed they aren't worthy to continue living and the other has people lovingly worrying over me because of my thin aether and asking for and accepting my opinion on how best to honor the departed animals in their charge.

[Angellos]

Except as we’ve been shown, they’re able of creating entities that can manipulate it. Outside of that; Zodiark shielded them for 12,000+ years. He was able to fend her off for that long and who knows how much longer he could have lasted. Within enough time and if Venat had actually given them said knowledge, who knows what they could have been capable of, we will never know because Venat had no hope in her people and ruined their lives against their consent.

Regarding the whole 1/13ths btw, are we going to just disregard the wol is able to do it and is 9/14th lol

He wasn't able to do it without the help of his comrades, who are not eight times rejoined. You'll notice that he didn't once shift the dynamis around himself. Even at the end, it was only with the help of creation magick that he was able to reach her with memories close to her heart. If he had been by himself he wouldn't have stood a chance.

[AziraSyuren]

I think it's really interesting that they didn't double down on Venat in the LL. That alongside the comment that she explicitly gave Emet a chance to survive shows that she was just as flawed as the Ancients she passed judgment on, if not more so. She was in no position to make a decision like that and it's neat that YoshiP acknowledged that.

It shows a level of nuance in her characterization that unfortunately wasn't prevalent enough in the story itself. It's almost like how a large potion of what makes Zenos such an amazing character is present in side materials.

[Tehmon]

They did such an amazingly terrible job at driving home how "inhuman" the Ancients were between the MSQ and the side quests that I have to wonder if they even consulted each other while they were writing. One path is telling me that these people are so flawed they aren't worthy to continue living and the other has people lovingly worrying over me because of my thin aether and asking for and accepting my opinion on how best to honor the departed animals in their charge.

While I agree there seems to be some inconsistency in terms of depicting ancient culture, I still think the majority of ancients being fine with the third sacrifice was pretty conclusive on how the ancients view not only misery and pain, but also all life in general. They seem to value only their own kin and their own paradise in a time of crisis. Nothing else seems to matter, and only when they are able to get back the paradise and the people they lost can they humor the idea that other beings have value as well. The Elpis section just felt like yes, you might appreciate my weirdness and oddity now, but in a time of true crisis, you WILL be throwing me into Zodiark's maw to ensure your civilizations future, whether I approve or not.