What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

Indeed, albeit in an area that has some manner of aetheric "suppression field". With that said, lorewise LBs were given aetheric descriptions beforehand, and that is for the player jobs. However, given that Elidibus is drawing so readily on prayer in that fight, and they hint at an association between it and dynamis and then with Meteion recognising them as dynamis when you use one, it gets murky. Could be either/or (including for the player characters outside of that fight) but as I say, Elidibus's case is not clear-cut.

Shouldn't she have surviving soul shards then? Her being sundered is just messy. Like, why didn't she suffer any of the same consequences of it that everyone else did? Zodiark becoming increasingly more powerful with rejoinings while she's at a fixed (whole) power level would also make more sense.

Hmmmm it's very messy and they don't explain it in much detail:

Q: Were Zodiark and Hydaelyn completely destroyed? Or there are still Sundered parts of them on other Reflections?
A: To be really frank on this one and to give you a very straight answer here, Hydaelyn was completely destroyed. Similarly, Fandaniel crushed Zodiark’s heart which is his core and that completely destroys Zodiark. There were of course parts of Zodiark in the other Reflections when he was sealed and split across all of them but at the same time of his main body was destroyed, they all would have also faded into oblivion.

So the same answer could be taken for her - my assumption being that the core for some reason was stuck on the Source, and with her being the heart, she was exempted from that treatment. You could argue that not being bound and "heartless", she was able to reform her primal body. I don't think they explained this stuff using the best explanations, but it's what we got. My guess is they didn't want to have to do any further writing regarding their presence on the Reflections.

[Brinne]

I think it's worth clarifying that when we say "Japanese religion that believes everything has a soul, even inanimate objects," what that means is Shintoism, which, yes, is one of the the dominant religions in Japan alongside Buddhism, but hardly a monolith.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, and again, I understand how taking cultural context into consideration is important - however, it can be a fine line, especially in a negative-skewing thread such as this one, between "there's a cultural factor here you haven't considered" and essentializing and a hint of dehumanizing rhetoric. Yes, Buddhist ideas obviously inform some of how FFXIV approaches reincarnation, and more broadly, long-standing Final Fantasy concepts like "the lifestream" and such - but it's a somewhat different nuance to saying "that aspect of the story you hate is because it's so Japanese."

The devs are still individuals with individual backgrounds beyond being "well, they're Japanese." Yoshida has gushed at length about his longstanding love of Western games and television dramas, and largely attributes that to his success in running FFXIV. If I recall correctly, Oda, the guy basically in charge of world lore, has mentioned he has a Christian background. Koji Fox himself is a major contributor to the lore team as well.

[CrownySuccubus]

Hmmmm it's very messy and they don't explain it in much detail:


So the same answer could be taken for her - my assumption being that the core for some reason was stuck on the Source, and with her being the heart, she was exempted from that treatment. You could argue that not being bound and "heartless", she was able to reform her primal body. I don't think they explained this stuff using the best explanations, but it's what we got. My guess is they didn't want to have to do any further writing regarding their presence on the Reflections.

What they said made perfect sense to me.

As the Watcher says, The Source is the lynchpin of all the other worlds. If it is destroyed by any means, the reflections die along with it. Similarly, crushing Zodiark's core in The Source destroyed every other part of him in all the other reflections. The same also likely applies to Hydaelyn.

It's probably also the case that if you completely destroy a soul on the Source, their reflections in other worlds probably go with it. For instance, destroying the WOL's soul completely would likely have also killed Ardbert, even prior to their merger. If what Y'shtola believes about the blasphemies is true, then all the people who turned on The Source probably also doomed other people. That'll be difficult to confirm on the First, since everybody's already dead on whatever their version of Islabard was, and that was the only major outbreak of blasphemies.

[Lauront]

It makes sense, but my point is more that it's a bit light on the details, so we're having to fill in the gaps, as both you and I are doing. Certainly, the fact that it's a primal with a heart (controller) may be significant here in explaining why its sundering doesn't quite work like it would on an individual. Especially since the star was being sundered at the same time, and Zodiark was intended to be installed as the will of the star, so we can assume that what happened is that the heart (main body) broke off on the Source, along with its controller in Hydaelyn's case, leaving her able to reassemble herself one way or another. As to dependency of the Reflection soul shards on the Source shard, it's possible. We've seen nothing definitive to confirm it (that I can recall) but given what the Watcher said about the destiny of the shards (as dimensions) if the Source were to falter, it's a logical conclusion.

[CrownySuccubus]

I think it's worth clarifying that when we say "Japanese religion that believes everything has a soul, even inanimate objects," what that means is Shintoism, which, yes, is one of the the dominant religions in Japan alongside Buddhism, but hardly a monolith.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, and again, I understand how taking cultural context into consideration is important - however, it can be a fine line, especially in a negative-skewing thread such as this one, between "there's a cultural factor here you haven't considered" and essentializing and a hint of dehumanizing rhetoric. Yes, Buddhist ideas obviously inform some of how FFXIV approaches reincarnation, and more broadly, long-standing Final Fantasy concepts like "the lifestream" and such - but it's a somewhat different nuance to saying "that aspect of the story you hate is because it's so Japanese."

The devs are still individuals with individual backgrounds beyond being "well, they're Japanese." Yoshida has gushed at length about his longstanding love of Western games and television dramas, and largely attributes that to his success in running FFXIV. If I recall correctly, Oda, the guy basically in charge of world lore, has mentioned he has a Christian background. Koji Fox himself is a major contributor to the lore team as well.

Nah, bruh. The cultural ideology that everything has a soul is hard-coded into Japanese society on a subconscious level. Even things which are not directly religious still either have origins or cultural relevance because of the belief that everything has a soul. If I had to compare it to something within western culture, it would be the courtesy of saying "Bless you!" or some other reaction after a sneeze. Even people who aren't religious do this, because it's been so ingrained in western culture that we just think of it as normal.

Also, this is not directly about Shinto, either. Shintoism is a form of "animism", and animism is a dominant folk belief across MOST of the East Asian cultural sphere, including in China, Vietnam, Korea, and other places.

Lastly, even if we ignored all of the above, the point I was making was that the way western/Christian people think of souls is NOT the way souls are thought of in Japan. You cannot compare the two. DO NOT put words in my mouth. The fact remains that it is silly to complain that a story does not use a concept like "souls" as we understand them in a Judeo-Christian context, because the culture that wrote this story wouldn't even have that context to begin with. Further, being a fan of Western media does not suddenly absolve this issue. Just because you watch anime for 30 years, that doesn't mean you understand what things like omoiyari or enryo are.

Again, please knock it off with this "Telling us that the game reflects Japanese values is dehumanizing" stuff, because it's 1) never been true, 2) is now getting outright ridiculous.

[Brinne]

Nah, bruh. The cultural ideology that everything has a soul is hard-coded into Japanese society on a subconscious level.

Crowny, I think you're really smart and obviously quite knowledgable about a lot of things, but I can't fundamentally agree with this kind of boggling suggestion that a value about something as heavy as the nature of souls is "hard-coded" into a group of humans, let alone comparing something that concerns a fundamental philosophical standpoint about the human condition to a couple of traditional words most people say on reflex, like "bless you." I mean, I'm sorry to be this confrontational, but, like - are you Japanese? I'll readily admit I'm not, and therefore I'm not comfortable making broad statements putting forth the cultural origins of their storytelling choices, but your comment earlier during the FFX talk about how you "learned" about the Japanese response to Tidus saying he hated his father being considered shocking suggested to me that you aren't.

I mean, if you are, and you're speaking from the standpoint of someone who has grown up Japanese and with an intimate familiarity of what is "hard-coded into their society on a subconscious level", like, okay. I'm happy to back off and cede the ground.

Again, please knock it off with this "Telling us that the game reflects Japanese values is dehumanizing" stuff, because it's 1) never been true, 2) is now getting outright ridiculous.

I was trying to be careful to say I WASN'T putting words in anyone's mouth, or suggesting anyone was doing that - I was saying we should probably be careful especially in a thread that skews very negative like this one is. I don't think it's out of line to say "hey, this generalizing rhetoric potentially makes me uneasy."

[aveyond-dreams]

Regardless of whatever the original influence was for these two deities it doesn't solve the problem that a lot of us wanted to see both Zodiark and Hydaelyn have ample screentime/development this expansion and we got neither. No duel between the two, barely any time where we got to see them in their godlike forms, no transformation sequences, nothing!

Venat was nice to hang out with and then when left to her own devices proceeds to: destroy the world, using the flimsiest logic that only holds up under the hype of the initial launch, or twitch chat where 10000 people are spamming emojis in unison. To be clear I didn't want to see more of Hermes/Zenos as Zodiark-I wanted to see more of how things were in that period where Elidibus was in control. At least he'll get more fleshed out over the course of Pandemonium, but it will have nothing to do with Zodiark.

The actual game right now has all but gotten rid of most of the magic holding it together and now we have to go after the 12. Playing in a world that lacks the dominant supernatural presence provided by the gods just feels wrong, and currently since the void is still too far in the future to be anything besides teases in the coming patches, I can't say I have high expectations for the coming batch of MSQ quests. It doesn't feel at all like the "just adventuring" days of ARR when we were discovering bits and pieces of the world, I don't expect much from 6.1 besides aimless wandering and the treasure map dungeon all while pushing even more fanservice from our beloved cast of plushies.

[CrownySuccubus]

You can believe whatever you want. But the fact remains that it's true. A lot of cultural values and mores are hard-coded subconsciously into the way people think and behave because those people have long accepted it as normal. Its not a good or bad thing -- it's just how people operate.

Also, in regarlds to the argument that saying "Bless you" is unrelated to this "fundamental human condition" that you put in italics, let me ask you a question: do you know WHY people say "Bless you" after a sneeze? They thought that sneezing either A) causes someone's soul to escape their body, B) let an evil spirit into their body or C) both. So yeah, "a couple of traditional words" like "Bless you" is still directly related to this fundamental philosophical standpoint of the human condition. Its origin is directly tied into the western view of souls. Again, this is now so subconscious that most people do not overtly think of souls escaping when they say "Bless you", but by the same token, the same is true of a lot of fundamental actions or viewpoints within Japan. For example, there is STILL a superstition there about menstrual blood being unclean which greatly affects how women are treated in the country.

I mean, I'm sorry to be this confrontational, but, like - are you Japanese? I'll readily admit I'm not, and therefore I'm not comfortable making broad statements putting forth the cultural origins of their storytelling choices, but your comment earlier during the FFX talk about how you "learned" about the Japanese response to Tidus saying he hated his father being considered shocking suggested to me that you aren't.

I mean, if you are, and you're speaking from the standpoint of someone who has grown up Japanese and with an intimate familiarity of what is "hard-coded into their society on a subconscious level", like, okay. I'm happy to back off and cede the ground.

Your apologies about being confrontational at this point are hollow to me. If you're going to do it, own up to it.

Besides that, I have diligently studied Japanese society, religion and culture for over 20 years. In addition to the numerous books, courses and first-hand discussions with Japanese people I have on my own, I could provide internet sources for most of the things I've claimed in any of these topics, although it would take me a while to dig them up.

I was trying to be careful to say I WASN'T putting words in anyone's mouth

Then you failed the moment that you said, "but it's a somewhat different nuance to saying 'that aspect of the story you hate is because it's so Japanese.'". Because that isn't what I said.

[Brinne]

You can believe whatever you want. But the fact remains that it's true. A lot of cultural values and mores are hard-coded subconsciously into the way people think and behave because those people have long accepted it as normal. Its not a good or bad thing -- it's just how people operate.

Yes, this is something I can't fundamentally agree with when applied to specific concepts like the writing choices in a single story, or specific individuals like Naoki Yoshida, Banri Oda, or Michael-Christopher Koji Fox. I'm not Japanese, but I can say, for what it's worth, I'm in a position in society where I'm very familiar with dehumanizing techniques and rhetoric. I'm not saying you're doing this (for the millionth time), but is it that difficult to understand why seeing someone ascribe individual choices to "it's because they're a part of this very broad cultural group" would make me uneasy?

Also, in regarlds to the argument that saying "Bless you" is unrelated to this "fundamental human condition" that you put in italics, let me ask you a question: do you know WHY people say "Bless you" after a sneeze? They thought that sneezing either A) causes someone's soul to escape their body, B) let an evil spirit into their body or C) both. So yeah, "a couple of traditional words" like "Bless you" is still directly related to this fundamental philosophical standpoint of the human condition. Its origin is directly tied into the western view of souls.

Yes. That is the origin of the phrase. There's a lot of absolutely wild stuff you can dig up in etymology and the history of language, that has nothing to do anymore with the associations they have in the present or how most people use them. The vast majority of people do not say "bless you" because Christian morality and values is "hard-coded into their subconscious." That language can evolve in absolutely wild ways and trying to take a prescriptive stance on it being a fool's errand is Linguistics 101. People say "bless you" because it's seen as a polite and courteous gesture. Come on now.

Besides that, I have diligently studied Japanese society, religion and culture for over 20 years. In addition to the numerous books, courses and first-hand discussions with Japanese people I have on my own, I could provide internet sources for most of the things I've claimed in any of these topics, although it would take me a while to dig them up.

I mean, okay. If you're not interested in apologies or trying to be understanding: in other words, your answer is no. You've done some research, read books and talked to some Japanese people. That's very cool. But you're not Japanese, and I'll be completely honest: it's a little weird to then take it upon yourself to speak very authoritatively on the "hard-coded subconscious" influences upon a very small group of individuals, working on an individual creative project.

[Skyborne]

Regardless of whatever the original influence was for these two deities it doesn't solve the problem that a lot of us wanted to see both Zodiark and Hydaelyn have ample screentime/development this expansion and we got neither. No duel between the two, barely any time where we got to see them in their godlike forms, no transformation sequences, nothing!

Venat was nice to hang out with and then when left to her own devices proceeds to: destroy the world, using the flimsiest logic that only holds up under the hype of the initial launch, or twitch chat where 10000 people are spamming emojis in unison. To be clear I didn't want to see more of Hermes/Zenos as Zodiark-I wanted to see more of how things were in that period where Elidibus was in control. At least he'll get more fleshed out over the course of Pandemonium, but it will have nothing to do with Zodiark.

The actual game right now has all but gotten rid of most of the magic holding it together and now we have to go after the 12. Playing in a world that lacks the dominant supernatural presence provided by the gods just feels wrong, and currently since the void is still too far in the future to be anything besides teases in the coming patches, I can't say I have high expectations for the coming batch of MSQ quests. It doesn't feel at all like the "just adventuring" days of ARR when we were discovering bits and pieces of the world, I don't expect much from 6.1 besides aimless wandering and the treasure map dungeon all while pushing even more fanservice from our beloved cast of plushies.

I had so many questions building up over time regarding those two and not a single one of them being answered in the expansion supposedly about wrapping up their story rendered me into an uncannily flat puddle. Expectations... subverted!

It sure would have been cool to witness Zodiark's actual summoning, as he comes into being and the Amaurotines huddling for safety or about to get eaten glance up at the skies returning to blue as the terminus creatures are vanished. A shot of the ruins and the post-apocalyptic wasteland of a world with its life all but wiped out so we could get an actual sense of loss and scale. Or Elidibus pooling and forming out from the core like the short story. Or Hydaelyn's own summoning. Or the clash between the two, the debate between the Amaurotines on how to proceed. What would have also been nice for worldbuilding? Actual solid numbers, an actual timeline of events.

But instead... vague fluffy Answers music video. Must've ran out of budget.