A certain someone isn't coming back [Spoilers]

[Cleretic]

Generally is an understatement. The fact is we don’t entirely know, especially with all of the delays that EW brought. I never said they’re the fault of everything people don’t like or understand, but there’s very obvious signs of it like empty plot threads that lead to nothing or dropped plot threads entirely that make it incredibly obvious. Writers aren’t perfect, it’s time to start understanding that instead of worshipping everything.

Exactly, and I never thought they were. But similarly, you can't just say 'this must have happened because rewrites', because we know when expansions start firming up, and the line that you've decided must've been a dropped plot thread was well after that. This is akin to declaring Nanamo's death fakeout to be the result of rewrites; that just can't actually be true, because the content where it was seeded and the content where it was 'undone' were being written simultaneously (or possibly even in the reverse order to how we got it). You can hate how it is, but that doesn't mean that some mythical different version was ever planned.

We know that plot is being finalized, voiced and all that by around the .4 patches, partly because of the voice acting changeover between ARR and Heavensward starting then (Aymeric and Estinien turned up with their new VAs, thereby confirming voiceover was being recorded at that time), and hilariously, because of the cultural references in the English script; we can literally sync Stormblood's writing, HW's patch production and real-world events by when exactly Hamilton references started turning up. And, yeah, it's at about 3.4 there, too.

You can go ahead and not like this beat and Endwalker all you want, and I'm happy to see it; god knows I've made my dislike of certain parts of Shadowbringers known, and I think people talking about what they don't like is just as important as talking about what they do. But don't get caught up in declaring that the things you don't like must be the fault of something specific when you don't actually have proof, lest you prove yourself a fool and lead yourself down a wrong path.

The timing confirms that this part you're complaining about can't be a change in rewrites; the way it came out was intended from the moment it was recorded. Hate it for what it is, don't try to pin blame on something just because it's a convenient scapegoat. The writers made a decision you hate, and they made it in full confidence and knowledge; accept it.

[Lyth]

'Rewrites' are commonplace in any published work. The correct term as far as scripts go is 'drafts'.

I think that part of the problem with discussing a serially published work online is that you tend to form preconceptions about how the story is 'supposed' to progress that someone who just picks up the game and plays through the story organically wouldn't. You become invested in your predictions because you've spend hours arguing over them. And then you start looking for the most obscure omens and signs to support a belief system that is progressively more disconnected from the actual story being discussed. You should never let yourself get too attached to your theories.

Could Zenos have been written as the ultimate villain for this story arc? Possibly, but I think that would have been by far the weakest use of his character. Could his character still have provided a lot of story potential? I think so, and I would loved to have seen him learn to soften his stance and learn to form bonds with the people around him in his own way (à la Seifer). But none of this really matters at the end of the day. If the writers decide that they're satisfied with the conclusion of his story arc in the finished product that they've delivered to us, I'm fine with that. And if they change their mind in the future, like they did with Gaius, I'm fine with that too.

[EaraGrace]

Exactly, and I never thought they were. But similarly, you can't just say 'this must have happened because rewrites', because we know when expansions start firming up, and the line that you've decided must've been a dropped plot thread was well after that. This is akin to declaring Nanamo's death fakeout to be the result of rewrites; that just can't actually be true, because the content where it was seeded and the content where it was 'undone' were being written simultaneously (or possibly even in the reverse order to how we got it). You can hate how it is, but that doesn't mean that some mythical different version was ever planned.

We know that plot is being finalized, voiced and all that by around the .4 patches, partly because of the voice acting changeover between ARR and Heavensward starting then (Aymeric and Estinien turned up with their new VAs, thereby confirming voiceover was being recorded at that time), and hilariously, because of the cultural references in the English script; we can literally sync Stormblood's writing, HW's patch production and real-world events by when exactly Hamilton references started turning up. And, yeah, it's at about 3.4 there, too.

You can go ahead and not like this beat and Endwalker all you want, and I'm happy to see it; god knows I've made my dislike of certain parts of Shadowbringers known, and I think people talking about what they don't like is just as important as talking about what they do. But don't get caught up in declaring that the things you don't like must be the fault of something specific when you don't actually have proof, lest you prove yourself a fool and lead yourself down a wrong path.

The timing confirms that this part you're complaining about can't be a change in rewrites; the way it came out was intended from the moment it was recorded. Hate it for what it is, don't try to pin blame on something just because it's a convenient scapegoat. The writers made a decision you hate, and they made it in full confidence and knowledge; accept it.

Not to mention dungeons, locales, and models made specifically for Endwalker were completed and being shown before 5.55 was even released, and the benchmark was available a month later. A rewrite that completely shifted the story would require retooling not only that content, but also re-recording and translating voice lines which were already done in March. The decision would have had to be made either during 5.4 or earlier, there’s no way it could happen later.

[nighttimebunny]

I think it would be really cool if Zenos came back, but in a specific way;

We think hes dead but his avatar possesses his body the moment we teleport out and heals it, 'locking' his soul into the back-seat of said body. The voidsent then is fully in control. Could have for an interesting villain.

In the end we kill said villain, giving bestie his body back, but hes like completely changed because hes been in a prison effectively watching atrocities and we are the ones who free'd him.

He then becomes our rival like in Pokemon, occasionally battling us, sometimes helping us. LOL

I honestly think this is kind of likely. We know for a fact that his avatar will play a role in the story eventually, and I doubt they'll never bring up Zenos again. Anyways, some of the wording in that interview is a little suspicious to me. Like, we know Zenos died, the question is what happened to his soul after dying? Why didn't they just say he went to the lifestream like they said for Emet/Hythlo (and that Venat's soul is destroyed)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Not to mention dungeons, locales, and models made specifically for Endwalker were completed and being shown before 5.55 was even released, and the benchmark was available a month later. A rewrite that completely shifted the story would require retooling not only that content, but also re-recording and translating voice lines which were already done in March. The decision would have had to be made either during 5.4 or earlier, there’s no way it could happen later.

Meanwhile there were already cut voicelines from trailers. Fandaniel’s “destroy them, destroy them all!” Comes to mind, so clearly it’s not hard for them to take things out or change them.

Exactly, and I never thought they were. But similarly, you can't just say 'this must have happened because rewrites', because we know when expansions start firming up, and the line that you've decided must've been a dropped plot thread was well after that. This is akin to declaring Nanamo's death fakeout to be the result of rewrites; that just can't actually be true, because the content where it was seeded and the content where it was 'undone' were being written simultaneously (or possibly even in the reverse order to how we got it). You can hate how it is, but that doesn't mean that some mythical different version was ever planned.

We know that plot is being finalized, voiced and all that by around the .4 patches, partly because of the voice acting changeover between ARR and Heavensward starting then (Aymeric and Estinien turned up with their new VAs, thereby confirming voiceover was being recorded at that time), and hilariously, because of the cultural references in the English script; we can literally sync Stormblood's writing, HW's patch production and real-world events by when exactly Hamilton references started turning up. And, yeah, it's at about 3.4 there, too.

You can go ahead and not like this beat and Endwalker all you want, and I'm happy to see it; god knows I've made my dislike of certain parts of Shadowbringers known, and I think people talking about what they don't like is just as important as talking about what they do. But don't get caught up in declaring that the things you don't like must be the fault of something specific when you don't actually have proof, lest you prove yourself a fool and lead yourself down a wrong path.

The timing confirms that this part you're complaining about can't be a change in rewrites; the way it came out was intended from the moment it was recorded. Hate it for what it is, don't try to pin blame on something just because it's a convenient scapegoat. The writers made a decision you hate, and they made it in full confidence and knowledge; accept it.

The timing confirms nothing lol. Just because something happened like that 3 expansions ago doesnt mean its happening now. SE has shown a lot lately that theyre able to do things and change things on the fly. Its not about whether i like or dislike things, but when theres very obvious signs of it that people are of course, going to pretend to be oblivious to, well not much to do about that. Theres nothing to be accepted. I wouldnt say they made it in full confidence or knowledge either, again, because perhaps said rewrites werent something Ishikawa wanted in the end, but was instead forced to do by the higher ups. This wouldnt be the first time something like this happened as even Matsuno went on twitter to complain about it for Bozja.

[Lyth]

Ah yes. This must all sound very strange to someone coming from the Warcraft franchise, where storyboards are planned twenty years in advance and where the edgy faction always comes up on top.

According to the Famitsu interview, Ishikawa wrote a second storyboard draft of the key plot points at the end of 2019 because she herself felt that the first one felt like it was just another expansion, rather than the true finale. The team compared the two drafts and they decided her decision to rework it was correct. All this was done even before they started creating the Endwalker CGI cinematics, let alone voice recording.

Ishikawa: After Shadowbringers released, around the end of 2019, Image Studio [note: the CGI studio within Square Enix that produces the high-quality cinematics in various SE games] had to be provided with storyboards. In autumn and winter of that year, we went on a residential together in order to decide the main points of the story for the next expansion.

But the problem was… we’re used to the writing process, and so feeling that “here and here are the remaining parts of the story we have to talk about, so let’s accept the rest”, the residential went very smoothly. I was in charge of filling in the details of the story elements, but when I looked at the structure of the content again, I thought “this might be okay for just another expansion, but if this is labelled the ‘finale’ is it really okay?” So I reworked the story from the plot outline. The end result was ready 2 days before the deadline.

Link

Just as an interesting little tidbit, when questioned about her favorite character in another interview about a year ago, she said that if she was allowed to include characters not yet introduced, her favorites would be Fandaniel and his [???]. Which we now know to be Hermes and Meteion.

I don't think that any of this reflects badly, it just demonstrates that they have high standards for the sort of story that they want to tell.

[Cleretic]

Just as an interesting little tidbit, when questioned about her favorite character in another interview about a year ago, she said that if she was allowed to include characters not yet introduced, her favorites would be Fandaniel and his [???]. Which we now know to be Hermes and Meteion.

I don't think that any of this reflects badly, it just demonstrates that they have high standards for the sort of story that they want to tell.

Yeah, don't treat the fact the story changed between conception and release as a negative or a source of problems; treat it as a neat part of how this story came about. I'm really big on cut content in games, and something that teaches you is that... well, sometimes something changes or gets lost because the original idea was bad. Constantly telling yourself that 'what could have been' was better than what did, or trying to find all the secret evidence of changes, just leads to you being unable to accept what you got for what it is.

And that 'favorite character' bit is interesting, because even though we now know Fandaniel's whole deal, we actually don't know what that [???] was, because it could've been a few things, Fandaniel is a lot of a character.
Was she referring to Meteion, and so saying something like 'Fandaniel and his familiar'?
Was she leaning towards Hermes' story, making it something like 'Fandaniel and his old life'?
Was it maybe Amon, leading to that meaning 'Fandaniel and his true identity'?
It could've even been his identity as Zodiark's creator, which would be 'Fandaniel and his creation'?

[Gemina]

Probably already said, but interesting that with Zodiark and Hydaelyn, Yoshi was like, "Look. They are dead. Like super dead. Not one smidgen of their essence remains... Gone." *makes a "vwoop" sound effect while flinging an index finger into the air*

I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but the same assertiveness has not been used with Zenos. I'm not saying he's coming back, and would rather that he does not. I'm just curious if it would be weird for the WoL to walk around with a wind-up Zenos. Especially if they crafted it themselves.

[Alleo]

I mean he was quite direct with Zenos in the latest interview. They even wondered if they should have done "he is death" sentence on top of that. How much more clear can that get? On top of that he also points out that Zenos is at the edge of the universe with no way to come back.

[EaraGrace]

Meanwhile there were already cut voicelines from trailers. Fandaniel’s “destroy them, destroy them all!” Comes to mind, so clearly it’s not hard for them to take things out or change them.

A cut line from the 5.5 trailer is indicative of being able to completely rewrite and rerecord an entire expansion? Really?

The timing confirms nothing lol. Just because something happened like that 3 expansions ago doesnt mean its happening now. SE has shown a lot lately that theyre able to do things and change things on the fly. Its not about whether i like or dislike things, but when theres very obvious signs of it that people are of course, going to pretend to be oblivious to, well not much to do about that. Theres nothing to be accepted. I wouldnt say they made it in full confidence or knowledge either, again, because perhaps said rewrites werent something Ishikawa wanted in the end, but was instead forced to do by the higher ups. This wouldnt be the first time something like this happened as even Matsuno went on twitter to complain about it for Bozja.

1. Matsuno didn’t “complain” stop trying to paint things as they aren’t.

2. Claiming those who disagree are just oblivious is a lazy argument.

3. Ishikawa rewrote the story after the others had accepted it. If anything she wasn’t happy with the original and wanted rewrites.