LL 70 Kaiten/SAM preview: Pragmatic/constructive ways to adjust the change before 6.1

[Kazimere]

Do you even know how the current rotation works? You absolutely can overspend kenki and not have enough for kaiten when re-applying higanbana

Are you really going to cherry pick a once a minute refresh that is done with Meikyo as your defense that you need to manage resources on Samurai to the degree that you are claiming Kaiten’s presence forces?

[Kazimere]

That's not true. Look, let's say you are on 15 kenki, and you have both the Kasha and Gekko combos done and you are doing Hakaze into Yukikaze ). You were at 15 kenki, now you are at 35 ( Yukikaze gives 15, Hakaze gives 5, so 20 gained ).
If at any point when you are doing Hakaze -> Yukikaze you do a Shinten, you will not have enough Kenki for a Kaiten, therefore you do not do Shinten.
You can only do Shinten if you will have enough Kenki for a Kaiten on your next Iaijutsu. In a vacuum, yeah , you will never have to think about it, but in practice you will use plenty of Shintens and may run into this "issue" -> to which the answer should be to get better at playing samurai - learning to manage the resource, instead of removing this from the job and making it worse.

No, in practicality you should be sitting on resources instead of just blowing it whenever you hear the noise. Additionally, your example is easily recovered by rolling over and using IAI before you hit your next Sen generator.

If there were times where it would be better to use Kaiten on another weapon skill over Shinten then maybe your argument would hold water. As it stands, you only use Kaiten on IAI and Shinten otherwise. It’s got the same level of involvement as using AoE or ST. You “feeling” like you have to manage doesn’t make it so

[Ransu]

Are you really going to cherry pick a once a minute refresh that is done with Meikyo as your defense that you need to manage resources on Samurai to the degree that you are claiming Kaiten’s presence forces?

Its not a cherry pick, its a fact. Regardless of if its "complex" or not, the fact exists that you do have to pay attention and not overspend your kenki else you wont have kaiten available in certain scenarios. As it stands right now with kaiten being removed there's absolutely no point in having kenki as it just turns into spamming shinten, so in terms of "action bloat" nothing friggan changes.

I stick by my previous statement. I don't think you really know how the job plays.

[ItsUrBoi]

No, in practicality you should be sitting on resources instead of just blowing it whenever you hear the noise. Additionally, your example is easily recovered by rolling over and using IAI before you hit your next Sen generator.

If there were times where it would be better to use Kaiten on another weapon skill over Shinten then maybe your argument would hold water. As it stands, you only use Kaiten on IAI and Shinten otherwise. It’s got the same level of involvement as using AoE or ST. You “feeling” like you have to manage doesn’t make it so

There are moments when you wanna use Kaiten on another weapon skill over Shinten. You use it on Iaijutsu or if the boss dies you use it on a combo finisher. Alternatively, if you are at 25 kenki and you are under raid buffs, if you use a Shinten and you are about to finish a combo ( the Kasha one for example ), there are many moments in which you will run out of Kenki if you are using Shinten too much, and you will not be able to recover enough Kaiten from Hakaze -> Shifu / Jinpu ( 10 in total ), so you can do a Kaiten.
It is objectively a bad practice to dumb every resource on Shinten during raid buffs at the moment exactly because if you end up on 0 or 5 kenki and need to do an Iaijutsu you cannot buff it, even by doing the 2 GCDs you probably meant.
If by rolling over you meant you just use Iaijutsu unbuffed by Kaiten than that's not how the job should work.
I do not know if you even play the job, but I do, and this can happen if you are not paying attention.

[Kazimere]

Its not a cherry pick, its a fact. Regardless of if its "complex" or not, the fact exists that you do have to pay attention and not overspend your kenki else you wont have kaiten available in certain scenarios. As it stands right now with kaiten being removed there's absolutely no point in having kenki as it just turns into spamming shinten, so in terms of "action bloat" nothing friggan changes.

I stick by my previous statement. I don't think you really know how the job plays.

I likely know how the job plays far better than you. Your notion of paying attention is weak. The management of Kenki is an illusion, and the removal of Kaiten will merely change how to go about “managing” Kenki.

The ability is an extra weave for one weapon skill. It’s an outright requirement and everything about Samurai’s resource generation makes it so easy to “manage” that it’s pointless for the skill to even exist.

[Kazimere]

There are moments when you wanna use Kaiten on another weapon skill over Shinten. You use it on Iaijutsu or if the boss dies you use it on a combo finisher. Alternatively, if you are at 25 kenki and you are under raid buffs, if you use a Shinten and you are about to finish a combo ( the Kasha one for example ), there are many moments in which you will run out of Kenki if you are using Shinten too much, and you will not be able to recover enough Kaiten from Hakaze -> Shifu / Jinpu ( 10 in total ), so you can do a Kaiten.
It is objectively a bad practice to dumb every resource on Shinten during raid buffs at the moment exactly because if you end up on 0 or 5 kenki and need to do an Iaijutsu you cannot buff it, even by doing the 2 GCDs you probably meant.
If by rolling over you meant you just use Iaijutsu unbuffed by Kaiten than that's not how the job should work.
I do not know if you even play the job, but I do, and this can happen if you are not paying attention.

I don’t main the job any longer, but I did for the entirety of ShB and the job’s resources are even easier to obtain now, while hardly changing. Using it on a combo finisher over Shinten is a loss. For example, using it on Kasha will only net you 185 more potency. Shinten is 270 potency. So, if the boss is going to die before you can use a Iai, you Shinten.

Raid buffs come out at 2 minutes, in which case you get a 50 kenki generator to use. The kenki flows so much for samurai that you’re more likely to over-cap on it than not have enough for a Kaiten. The “management” of Kenki is an illusion.

[YukiB]

The ability is an extra weave for one weapon skill. It’s an outright requirement and everything about Samurai’s resource generation makes it so easy to “manage” that it’s pointless for the skill to even exist.

You know what else is an outright requirement? Spending kenki on Shinten. Maybe they should just remove kenki and Shinten entirely and bake an extra 54, 108, or 162 potency into our combo GCDs to make up for it. Why would we want to press an extra button?

[Kazimere]

You know what else is an outright requirement? Spending kenki on Shinten. Maybe they should just remove kenki and Shinten entirely and bake an extra 54, 108, or 162 potency into our combo GCDs to make up for it. Why would we want to press an extra button?

Then provide a better solution as to why Kaiten should stay. How many times does this have to be explained. Kaiten is used for Iaj and Iaj alone. There is no decision for it 99.9% of the time. The ability to obtain or maintain the resources for it are also a non issue. They want to reduce bloat, and Kaiten is the easiest one to snip. You “feeling” like it is different doesn’t change that.

[YukiB]

Then provide a better solution as to why Kaiten should stay. How many times does this have to be explained. Kaiten is used for Iaj and Iaj alone. There is no decision for it 99.9% of the time. The ability to obtain or maintain the resources for it are also a non issue. They want to reduce bloat, and Kaiten is the easiest one to snip. You “feeling” like it is different doesn’t change that.

And without Kaiten, kenki is used for Shinten. Why not remove it, too?

I've seen several people bring this point up with you, and you seem adamant to disregard it no matter how valid it is. EVERYTHING our jobs do is superfluous. What matters at the end of the day is the total damage we do. Anything can be removed, and numbers moved around to achieve that damage. Every job could be auto attacks only, if those auto attacks were scaled appropriately. But that wouldn't be fun. It's the various ways each job deals damage that makes them unique and fun.

I don't need anything but my enjoyment of the skill and its contribution to the SAM fantasy to justify the existence of Kaiten.

You, meanwhile, justify its non-existence because of its superfluous nature. That same argument can be used to justify the non-existence of EVERY skill. Everything is superfluous. Only the numbers matter.

[Kazimere]

And without Kaiten, kenki is used for Shinten. Why not remove it, too?

I've seen several people bring this point up with you, and you seem adamant to disregard it no matter how valid it is. EVERYTHING our jobs do is superfluous. What matters at the end of the day is the total damage we do. Anything can be removed, and numbers moved around to achieve that damage. Every job could be auto attacks only, if those auto attacks were scaled appropriately. But that wouldn't be fun. It's the various ways each job deals damage that makes them unique and fun.

I don't need anything but my enjoyment of the skill and its contribution to the SAM fantasy to justify the existence of Kaiten.

You, meanwhile, justify its non-existence because of its superfluous nature. That same argument can be used to justify the non-existence of EVERY skill. Everything is superfluous. Only the numbers matter.

Well, it seems your justification is left wanting, but you're still going to try to lean on it as hard as you can. I guess we will see how it works out for you. Additionally, using the "every ability is superfluous" is not a good counter. Clearly there is a hierarchy.